Reposting a Class

[For Valor]

This comes from the Incarnum/Warlock, anyone? thread. I posted a combination of Warlock and Incarnate, and it hasn't gotten a lot of original criticism.

NOTE: Before you comment, read the spoilers with my arguments below.

Here it is:

The HD is d8, the skill points are 4 + Int and the skills are Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Know (arcana), Know (nature), Know (the planes), Profession, Spellcraft, UMD.

Everything works like it does normally, and the soulmeld lists come from the Incarnate/Soulborn lists.

The Eldritch blast works just like a Warlock, except now you add your ChaMod to damage.

Soulock Ability: At 6th and 16th level, you can a Soulock ability. You pick one from the list below:

• Incarnum Surge: You can increase the essentia of one of your soulmelds by your ChaMod for a numer of rounds equal to half your Cha Score. These rounds do not need to be used consecutively, and you can change your selected soulmeld or end the effect as a free action. This refreshes during your daily meditation period after a full-night's rest.
• Invocation of Hopelessness: If you spend a full-round action on an Invocation that requires a save or SR, you can make it so the Invocation no longer allows a save or SR (choose one, not both). You may only use this effect a number of times per day equal to your ChaMod.
• Improved Blast: Add +1d6 damage to all your Eldritch Blasts.
• Greater Power: Learn 1 new invocation and increase your essentia by 2
• Bonus Feat: You may take 1 [Incarnum] feat or 1 feat with the prerequisite of being a Warlock
• Eldritch Globe: Your Eldritch Blasts can affect an area of effect with a radius of 5ft/level. You may use this ability ChaMod times per day

what else? hmmm.. oh! Invocations. You gain access to them like a regular warlock (6, 11, 16). At 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, you can switch out 1 invocation known for any other invocation.

Arguments
So here are my arguments against those who say the class is too strong:

A) You combine the Incarnate with the Warlock. It's like a Gestalt, which means it's pretty strong.

Spoiler

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I disagree. The first thing I've done is remove all the flavor, which doesn't hurt too much but brings the classes down a little bit. I've also emphasized MAD here. The class needs to attack (Str/Dex), use Soulmelds and have good HP with a d8 HD (Con), and uses Charisma more than the original Warlock (Cha). I was even thinking about bonus Invocations for a high Charisma.

So this gives MAD.

It also has fewer Incarnate soulmelds, one less chakra (which is a big difference), and less essentia. It doesn't gain Expanded Essentia Capacity (which is important for most Incarnum classes. Now you need to spend feats on that), and it doesn't gain access to the Soul chakra.

Also, remember that the Warlock is Tier 4 and the Incarnate is Tier 3. Toning them down and then combining them yields a low tier2 to medium tier 3.

B) Most of those Soulock abilities are ridiculous.

Spoiler

Show

I concede, they are. +1d6 to an Eldritch blast is decent, and it's probably the weakest of the abilities (actually... that's probably the bonus feat). But I just needed something more to contribute to the differentiability of the class. I don't think the abilities overpower anything too much, though. I'll get rid of them if they do.

C) I'm sure you guys will argue different things...

[mrcarter11]

I have never played a warlock.. But incarnates are entertaining from time to time. So I can't say much about the warlock side of things, but the other side seems fine. I mean with only six soulmelds at a time, and 20 essentia you only average 3 per. Four binds isn't OP at all. And it can't bind soul so I don't see any problems.
EDIT: Does surge refresh per day?

[Morph Bark]

If you really want to "tone them down" as you say, lower the number of invocations some, add when they actually get Least/Lesser/Greater/Dark Invocations, perhaps lower Chakra Binds by one more and put the gained possible binds later, then add some new flavourful abilities of its own beyond the Soulock abilities. (On that note, should it be Soulock, Soul-lock or Soullock?)

Also, I'd just make the Skill points 4 + Int. Lastly, you say "the most important skills are concentration, diplomacy, spellcraft, and UMD", but is this actually their skill list? It's not stated anywhere.

[For Valor]

If you really want to "tone them down" as you say, lower the number of invocations some, add when they actually get Least/Lesser/Greater/Dark Invocations, perhaps lower Chakra Binds by one more and put the gained possible binds later, then add some new flavourful abilities of its own beyond the Soulock abilities. (On that note, should it be Soulock, Soul-lock or Soullock?)

Also, I'd just make the Skill points 4 + Int. Lastly, you say "the most important skills are concentration, diplomacy, spellcraft, and UMD", but is this actually their skill list? It's not stated anywhere.

Well, I don't see many people talking about its OP-ness, so I'm not thinking about toning it down yet. I've got yet to playtest the class, but my math agrees with me in saying that this isn't too strong.

One of the things I was thinking about was making Invocation access later and decreasing the Invocation numbers, though. You read my mind.

4 + Int? Alrighty. And I'll get the skill list up. I was in a hurry to post this stuff so I just took the relevant skills and threw them on. The main idea behind that was to reinforce the fact that UMD was a class skill, and that the perception skills were not.

And it is Soulock. Soullock looks like it would be pronounced "SOO-lok" to me, but you can really write it as you please. "Soulock" takes the least amount of characters to type.

@mrcarter11: Yes, surge refreshes during meditation. I'll add that in.

[Morph Bark]

Well, I don't see many people talking about its OP-ness, so I'm not thinking about toning it down yet. I've got yet to playtest the class, but my math agrees with me in saying that this isn't too strong.

It mainly depends on what you compare it to of course. All in all, this combo seems like it'd make for a decent melee fighter who pumps up his Con, the ability both Warlocks and Incarnates favour (after Wis and Cha for each, but Warlocks can be played as the most NAD class ever apparently).

Also, it would be handy if you put in what ability scores the meldshaping functions off.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Probably has the potential to be overpowered, but I'm not enough of an expert on Incarnum (not actually having the books) to say for certain.

My main grievance is that...well...it's boring. It's two classes stripped of the flavorful parts, and given 2 abilities at 6th and 16th level. That just doesn't grab my interest, even if it is mechanically sound.

The opinions of others may vary, however, as that's a very personal comment, and not really a balance issue.

[For Valor]

Djinn, that was also my biggest problem. The only thing I can hope for is that the flavor of invocations and soulmelds makes the classes vary... but that's pretty unlikely. Even the totemist, with its many relatively equal soulmelds, has only 1 very competetive build. Oh, I wish we could have a game focused around Tier 2 classes...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Djinn, that was also my biggest problem. The only thing I can hope for is that the flavor of invocations and soulmelds makes the classes vary... but that's pretty unlikely. Even the totemist, with its many relatively equal soulmelds, has only 1 very competetive build.

Yeah...I just can't help but feel the implied flavor is rather specific, yet the class doesn't carry it at all. I'd weaken it up a bit to allow for some actually interesting class features, personally.

Oh, I wish we could have a game focused around Tier 2 classes...

We could, just nobody has designed it yet. Tier 3 might be a better place to balance it though...there's less 1-shot encounter stuff going on, but it's still interesting and varied.

[For Valor]

We could, just nobody has designed it yet. Tier 3 might be a better place to balance it though...there's less 1-shot encounter stuff going on, but it's still interesting and varied.

Agreed

I'm hopefully going to playtest this in a week or two, to find its point of balance. Hopefully feedback will come soon.

[Milskidasith]

This isn't T2, I don't think. T2 is a class that can be good at everything if it wants to. It is definitely T3, because it can be good at what it can do, but it doesn't have the flexibility to be T2.

[jiriku]

The soulock ability menu at 6th and 16th level is a balance problem. One of two things is going to happen here: either the abilities are much too good for low-level play, and the 6th level ability is overpowered, or the abilities are balanced appropriately for 6th level play, and the 16th level ability sucks.

Consider making each soulock ability a double-decker power, with a weak ability and a strong one. At 6th level you gain the weak ability for your selection. At 16th level you gain the strong ability for your first selection, and the weak and strong abilities of a second selection.

[For Valor]

@Milakidasith: That's a good way to rate the class. It DOES have very little flexibility. However... the Binder is similar in that you pick a couple of vestiges and stick with those throughout the whole game (And the second you get Zceryll, you make it your b*tch). Seeing as the Zceryll Binder is low Tier 2, I think this could actually fit into low tier 2 if it were strong enough. But I doubt that; this is more like a high tier 3 class.

@jiriku: why are the abilities OP for a 6th-level char and weak for level 16? I mean, I have the feeling some of them are very strong, but most of them are moderated by ChaMod, which should be scaling as you get better. At level 6, it's pretty strong, which is nice, and it should only get worse if your Charisma doesn't improve. In a party with a decent wiz/cler/favsoul/etc you should have already gotten +5 to all your stats off of Wish from a bunch of Efreeti that you and your party slapped around, and you SHOULD be putting at least a couple of your bonus attribute points into Cha.

I see this being pretty solid for 16th level and a little strong for 6th level. Are there specific Soulock Abilities that you think are too strong/too weak for their selected areas of obtainment?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

@Milakidasith: That's a good way to rate the class. It DOES have very little flexibility. However... the Binder is similar in that you pick a couple of vestiges and stick with those throughout the whole game (And the second you get Zceryll, you make it your b*tch). Seeing as the Zceryll Binder is low Tier 2, I think this could actually fit into low tier 2 if it were strong enough. But I doubt that; this is more like a high tier 3 class.

You can swap Vestiges at the beginning of each day, actually. That's why it's good.

[For Valor]

You can swap Vestiges at the beginning of each day, actually. That's why it's good.

woops. substitute "game" for "level". My bad. Same status on the Zceryll nonsense.