Pathfinder Dread Necromancer Update and Optimization

[Johanas]

Alright. So I'll be playing a Dread Necromancer in a Pathfinder game. I'm fairly familiar with Pathfinder, but would appreciate some help updating the class to Pathfinder.

1. I would like to know if anyone has updated this, or if there is much I need to change. I presume that the rebuke undead just becomes Channel Energy and the Command Undead feat.

2. Thinking of taking Channel Energy-based feats, and probably the equivalent of Turning feats. Considering the possibility of Spectral Hand abuse, but so far nothing is planned for the higher levels, just going with Extra Spell for some extra fun (i.e. Teleport, Wish, etc.) The Hoard Life spell could be fun with a Necromancer Fluff. I can probably convince to the GM to make it Necromancy, thereby opening up my Advanced Learning. Any suggestions?

3.Any other suggestions? Spells for Advanced Learning, skill/feat choices, possibly a prestige class or two?

Any and all help and input is greatly appreciated.

[Johanas]

After another look, it occurs to me I'll probably have to drop the Negative Energy Burst class feature. It's just too similar to Channel Energy.

[Hurlbut]

After another look, it occurs to me I'll probably have to drop the Negative Energy Burst class feature. It's just too similar to Channel Energy.

Probably could make the Channel Negative Energy increase by a step. (1d6 = 1d8) Although I cannot say for sure whenever that's a bit much.

[Tyndmyr]

There is one problem with almost all arcane necromancy classes in D&D. They fail to match the classic image of a necromancer, someone who raises a mess o' undead to do his dirty work. With the exception of thrallherd, they're all bad at this.

Fix that aspect of it, and it'll feel more like a real necromancer.

Increasing damage die by a step for inflict isn't a biggie. Most classes got a solid boost in pf, and DN wasn't overpowered beforehand.

[Pink]

There is one problem with almost all arcane necromancy classes in D&D. They fail to match the classic image of a necromancer, someone who raises a mess o' undead to do his dirty work. With the exception of thrallherd, they're all bad at this.

Fix that aspect of it, and it'll feel more like a real necromancer.

...Really? Cause Dread Necromancer totally does that. It gets to control undead as both a cleric and a wizard, so you can have a big permanent mob of undead, and it has summon undead spells on it's class list.

[QuantumSteve]

You can pretty much play the Dread Necro as is in PF (I have) with only a couple of tweaks.

Rebuke Undead is an easy fix, replace it with Channel Energy just like a Cleric. As you mentioned, Channel Energy does overlap with Negitive Energy Burst. However, Channel Energy is so much better, I never missed NEB for a second. If you want, you can replace NEB with the Command Undead Feat.

[arguskos]

...Really? Cause Dread Necromancer totally does that. It gets to control undead as both a cleric and a wizard, so you can have a big permanent mob of undead, and it has summon undead spells on it's class list.

Except that a Cleric is actually better at it than a DN is, thanks to the Deathbound domain and some other tricks they get.

A DN only has one pool of control, and can't boost it nearly as large as a Cleric can.

Also, DNs get Animate Dead after Clerics.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have always view clerics as the hordes of undead necromancers and the DN as the "I have a few extremely powerful pets " necromancer type.

[Johanas]

Arguskos, Tyndmyr, always a pleasure to hear from you two. Always valuable insight.

As you mentioned, Channel Energy does overlap with Negative Energy Burst. However, Channel Energy is so much better, I never missed NEB for a second. If you want, you can replace NEB with the Command Undead Feat.

I was kinda thinking it would take some modification or something. Nothing much, but flavor-wise, if anyone is going to be adept at using Negative Energy, a Necromancer would be it.

One thing I forgot to mention: We're starting at level 5. So even if i just replace NEB with Command Undead, I'll already have it. So that should be fun.

[Ormagoden]

Except that a Cleric is actually better at it than a DN is, thanks to the Deathbound domain and some other tricks they get.

A DN only has one pool of control, and can't boost it nearly as large as a Cleric can.

As far as I'm aware DN can do many of the same tricks a cleric or wizard can to increase the HD amount of undead they can control. On top of that their starting pool is much higher. DNs add their Cha modifier to the HD amount making it 4+Cha/Per CL for animate dead. The fact that it is based off cha makes it an insanely variable number right off the bat without any additional feats.

That means at level 8 when a Dread necromancer first gains animate dead you're looking at (with a 16 cha) being able to control 56HD of undead where as a level 8 cleric control pool is 32HD. Thats a HUGE difference.

And thats without feats...

[Starbuck_II]

Alright. So I'll be playing a Dread Necromancer in a Pathfinder game. I'm fairly familiar with Pathfinder, but would appreciate some help updating the class to Pathfinder.

1. I would like to know if anyone has updated this, or if there is much I need to change. I presume that the rebuke undead just becomes Channel Energy and the Command Undead feat.

2. Thinking of taking Channel Energy-based feats, and probably the equivalent of Turning feats. Considering the possibility of Spectral Hand abuse, but so far nothing is planned for the higher levels, just going with Extra Spell for some extra fun (i.e. Teleport, Wish, etc.) The Hoard Life spell could be fun with a Necromancer Fluff. I can probably convince to the GM to make it Necromancy, thereby opening up my Advanced Learning. Any suggestions?

3.Any other suggestions? Spells for Advanced Learning, skill/feat choices, possibly a prestige class or two?

Any and all help and input is greatly appreciated.

Change Negative energy burst to deal 1 die more damage when a Dread Necro of that level uses (Channel Energy) it. The purpose is for DN to be really good at bursting out negative energy.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Yeah, with the already mentioned adjustments for channel energy and command undead as a free feat. . . it's pretty much playable as is in pathfinder.

[Johanas]

Ok, so far I have as follows: Switch to Negative Energy Channel, Command Undead as a bonus feat, and I'll be taking Selective Channeling, Improved Channel, and maybe Extra Channel, in that order. Thoughts? Any suggestions to be added in?

[JaronK]

Except that a Cleric is actually better at it than a DN is, thanks to the Deathbound domain and some other tricks they get.

But the number of undead DN's can control via Animate Dead and later Plague of Undead is WAY higher.

A DN only has one pool of control, and can't boost it nearly as large as a Cleric can.

They have two. Rebuke Undead, and the Animate Dead pool. And due to their Undead Mastery, the Animate Dead pool is enormous.

Also, DNs get Animate Dead after Clerics.

Okay, that's annoying. It's 3 levels later in fact. But at least the animated dead they do get are stronger, and they can always get Animate Dread Warrior... heck, they can spell stitch it.

JaronK

[Johanas]

Which is an interesting point. We'll be starting at level 5, and when I get Animate Dead, I should have something around a +7 Charisma Modifier. I'm also the token Charisma Goon, making me nominal party face, and therefore doubly able to convince the party to let me up my Charisma. We're talking 11 HD a level! That's 88 Hit Dice of Undead when I get the pool initially, and I still have my Command Undead pool too. Any other ways you all can think of to expand this, or gain a third pool? I am totally open to taking Extra Spell if it gives me another pool. Ideas?

Also, I have been looking, I'll probably be taking most of my feats from the Libris Mortis, as benefits a necromancer. Just some REALLY good stuff in there.

[Optimystik]

Except that a Cleric is actually better at it than a DN is, thanks to the Deathbound domain and some other tricks they get.

A DN only has one pool of control, and can't boost it nearly as large as a Cleric can.

Also, DNs get Animate Dead after Clerics.

They also can never get Desecrate.

Cloistered Cleric with Divine Magician (all necromancy spells) replacing the Knowledge Domain can out-necro a DN... but then, they are Tier 1 so this is to be expected.

[Johanas]

Does the Fell Animate feat (Libris Mortis) provide another pool?