LA... are you really such a monster?

[Arceius]

I have a friend, who is also one of my players, that claims that (in reference to LA) "1 is ok, 2 is berable, 3 is very bad, 4+ are just fodder".

So I was wondering what exactly is the breaking point for Level Adjustment? What is the point, if any, that an LA become too unbearable despite the numerous benefits the race or whatever might provide.

[Kylarra]

+2 is the most I'd ever consider and even then only with buyoff.

[awa]

it really depends on a couple things what are you getting out of the race (for example hobgoblins not worth a 1 point level adjustment) and how powerful your class is lossing levels of fighter is not as bad as losing levels of wizard.

[arguskos]

I've played with LA +1 before. There's a few circumstances of LA +2 I would consider. LA 3 or more better be amazing and buyoff better be in play, otherwise, it's a waste of your time/life/etc.

[Gorgondantess]

I have a friend, who is also one of my players, that claims that (in reference to LA) "1 is ok, 2 is berable, 3 is very bad, 4+ are just fodder".

So I was wondering what exactly is the breaking point for Level Adjustment? What is the point, if any, that an LA become too unbearable despite the numerous benefits the race or whatever might provide.

It all depends on what you're going for.
For casters, +1 LA can work for most builds, if you find the right creature. +2 can work for a few, but it's gotta have some damn good benefits.. +3, you've gotta have at least +6 to your casting stat, some other goodies, and LA buyoff is vital. +4 or above: just don't do it.

For melee'rs, depends on how big the str/con bonus is. For example, Half Dragon is a decent choice, because the bonus to strength makes up for the +3 LA. Goliath works, with bonus to strength, con, few penalties, and powerful build, and anything with large size is pretty much a good choice. So, half celestial won't do the trick, but something like an ogre might.
If you're just looking at goodies, though, if you're going above +1 LA, you need a lot to make it worth it. Even +1 LA is devastating: +2-4 can take a build from awesome to soulknife calibre.

[Defiant]

Pixie is +4LA and gives some potent bonuses, notably +8DEX, +6INT, at-will invisibility, spell resistance, and so on. It works wonderfully with a rogue, especially one focused on skills. You lose 4 levels, but gain +4 or +3 to your important skills, so it balances out.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, but you get what I'm saying.

[awa]

the problem with high level adjustment is it rarely gives you abilities that scale well. Things that would be overpowered on a level 1 character are often pointless or easily replicated at high levels. For example things like poison where the dc typically becomes trivial to make by mid level

edit pixis an exception to the rule but many creatures with level adjustment that high also give you racial hit dice

[Serpentine]

Hey, just how does LA buy-off work?

[Kylarra]

Hey, just how does LA buy-off work?

obligatory link.
Essentially when you would level up at certain milestones, you pay exp to reduce your LA by 1 instead, staying at your current level but lowering your ecl.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Optimized: +1
Only slightly missing out: +2
Still optimizable to 'normal' play: +3
Breaking point of the rock tag: +4

anything above that better have not have RHD to count against your ECL. But oh wait... they pretty much all do. Yet another reason why RHD shouldn't count against ECL because lets face it, unless you're a sharn the LA is going to make you way too sucky.

[Runestar]

I believe that LA can be worth it, but it must be fairly and reasonably determined to begin with, and let's face it, most of the ECLs of monsters these days are simply way too high.

Case in point - ghaele. ECL20 (10 outsider HD, +10LA, and I still feel it is one of the more decent monster PCs).

[Tshern]

For melee'rs, depends on how big the str/con bonus is. For example, Half Dragon is a decent choice, because the bonus to strength makes up for the +3 LA. Goliath works, with bonus to strength, con, few penalties, and powerful build, and anything with large size is pretty much a good choice. So, half celestial won't do the trick, but something like an ogre might.

Actually Half-Dragon is rubbish. Giving up too much for way too little, taking that simply makes you a bait for spells like Blasphemy.

[Arceius]

Optimized: +1
Yet another reason why RHD shouldn't count against ECL because lets face it, unless you're a sharn the LA is going to make you way too sucky.

I really like that way of doing it. RHD are so annoying. "It only has a +2 LA! Awesome this is gonna be great." "Yeah, but it has 6 RHD... good luck pulling that off." "... Why, WoTC... why?"

[Tshern]

Black Ethergaunts are pretty decent even with their 16 RHD...

[Superglucose]

+2 is the most I'd ever consider and even then only with buyoff.

+1.

I hate level adjustments because class levels in the classes I enjoy playing give me so much more.

[Gorgondantess]

Actually Half-Dragon is rubbish. Giving up too much for way too little, taking that simply makes you a bait for spells like Blasphemy.

It works well with something like a charger barbarian, where you can put the high strength to good use- that's +4 to hit and +6 to damage from the strength alone, for 3 levels. The +2 con pays off the hp you lost from lost HD at high levels, and then you get a few other nice goodies. It's not awesome, but it's not rubbish.

[Tshern]

It works well with something like a charger barbarian, where you can put the high strength to good use- that's +4 to hit and +6 to damage from the strength alone, for 3 levels. The +2 con pays off the hp you lost from lost HD at high levels, and then you get a few other nice goodies. It's not awesome, but it's not rubbish.

Compared to quite a few other options like Feral?

[PId6]

Casters:

+1: Usable with LA buyoff if it provides good benefits (boosts to casting stat being prime advantage).
+2: Requires intentional self-nerf, and the benefits must be extremely good (like Saint). May be worth considering with buyoff.
+3: Not worth considering under any circumstances.

Non-casters:

+1: Pretty useful even without buyoff, and there are a wide variety of LA +1 templates that are very usable (Half-Minotaur, Feral, Lolth-Touched, Mineral Warrior, etc).
+2: Worth considering. Benefits potentially worth the cost (two of the above templates, for example). Not too bad with buyoff, and could be worthwhile even without.
+3: Requires a lot of thinking. Probably a self-nerf. Stacking +1 templates is almost the only reason to want to do this. With better classes (like martial adepts), the utility of this goes down, but with weaker classes (like fighter), this may not be a huge nerf. Buyoff is required, though it doesn't help enough most of the time.
+4: Not worth considering under any circumstances.

There are exceptions (like the aforementioned Black Ethergaunt), but this will hold true for nearly all forms of LA.

[Gorgondantess]

Compared to quite a few other options like Feral?

Feral is cheese. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, and I'm pretty damn liberal in what I'll allow. 'Sides, it's 3.0.
I was mainly using Half-Dragon as a core example of a decent template. Not good, decent. If you really want something good, use half-ogre.

[icefractal]

There are a few exceptions (Black Ethergaunts, as Tshern mentioned, and I happen to think the Ghost is worth its +5 LA for the right classes), but most things above +1 or +2 aren't worth it - even most of the +1 stuff is overpriced. This varies by class though - martial types can support 2 or 3 LA if the abilities gained are good enough, casters not so much.

[Milskidasith]

Feral is cheese. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, and I'm pretty damn liberal in what I'll allow. 'Sides, it's 3.0.
I was mainly using Half-Dragon as a core example of a decent template. Not good, decent. If you really want something good, use half-ogre.

I'm surprised you would disallow feral but not mention half minotaur. Size increase, massive boosts to strength and constitution, a decent bit of AC, and a slight movement speed increase? It's a huge amount for 1 LA, and quite possibly better than feral if you don't give feral the special qualities unless they have actual monster hit dice.

[Jackgar]

I just find LA to be a huge hassle. I'd play a good amount of LA +1 ones, but that's about it. There are very, very few +2 ones I'd use, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Githzerai.

[Natael]

I've played a pixie hellfire warlock, worked alright for the most part, until monsters started casting Blasphemy, which really started to hurt because even something equal level to me would get some nice effects.

[Prime32]

Tier system for templates

[Aotrs Commander]

I've played a pixie hellfire warlock, worked alright for the most part, until monsters started casting Blasphemy, which really started to hurt because even something equal level to me would get some nice effects.

Mind you, Blasphemy (et al) is just right-out abusive anyway...

(If the DM uses it, they stand a good chance of a TPK if you're not extremely careful and the cleric spell level isn't too much higher than the group; if it is, it's an auto-TPK. I revise it to Will Negates at the very least...)

[Oslecamo]

I'm surprised you would disallow feral but not mention half minotaur. Size increase, massive boosts to strength and constitution, a decent bit of AC, and a slight movement speed increase? It's a huge amount for 1 LA, and quite possibly better than feral if you don't give feral the special qualities unless they have actual monster hit dice.

Honestly, the half-minotaur is a clear example of bad wording from somebody who knew even less how the rules work and nobody bothered to errata. Dragon Magazine is filled with those and a good reason why it isn't trusted. All other templates that change size don't change your ability scores just for changing size.

Basically, allowing half minotaur as written would like be claiming a monk isn't proefecient with his fists.

[Saintheart]

Can't say I've got extensive experience with it, but particularly when you've got a larger party LA is a heavy hit to put on one character. Case in point: my current RHOD campaign with an Avariel at LA +2. Course, it doesn't help she went for four levels in fighter and is only now going into Duskblade, with everyone else in the party at level 8, but she's literally down to being a one-trick pony: True Strike, Dive Attack with rapier, rinse, repeat. That's it. She's the original hit and run fighter.

Her wings are quite useful, of course, but the party recently picked up a Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1 with the Mindsight feat who basically functions as party radar out to 100', and a bard who took a raven familiar. We've got our eyes in the sky covered now. Sad, really.

[2xMachina]

Honestly, the half-minotaur is a clear example of bad wording from somebody who knew even less how the rules work and nobody bothered to errata. Dragon Magazine is filled with those and a good reason why it isn't trusted. All other templates that change size don't change your ability scores just for changing size.

Basically, allowing half minotaur as written would like be claiming a monk isn't proefecient with his fists.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a

Half Goristro

* Size and Type: Huge outsider (goristros are Huge)
* Speed: No wings
* Armor Class: +5 natural armor improvement from template; +3 natural armor improvement due to size change from template
* Attack: No claws or bite, so add slam attacks instead
* Damage: Slam 3d6+1-1/2 Str
* Special Attacks: smite good, 1-2 HD levitate 3/day, 3-4 HD fear 1/day
* Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., immune to poison, acid/cold/electric/fire resistance 10, DR 5/cold iron, SR 14
* Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +0, Cha +2*; a size increase also changes the following: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4
* Skills: 7 skill points per (HD+3); add Intimidate, Jump, and Sense Motive as class skills
* Challenge Rating: +3 (+1 base for template, +1 size increase, +1 harder to defeat)

This does.

[Prime32]

That stuff implies that you were meant to add an extra +1 LA for increasing size which isn't included in the half-minotaur template.

[Morph Bark]

I only ever use templates with max LA of +3, unless it's a Gestalt game. LA+3 can be bought off pre-epic, but LA+4 can't. Something with an LA of more than +1 is tougher on you if you want to be a spellcaster or anything that depends on something level-based (binder level, manifester level, etc.) and beyond LA+2 should not be considered.

Racial HD is even tougher unless you can somehow retrain them into class HD, but it's not so bad if you take a class with only 2 skill points per level or an initiator class. Better not get one with more than 2 RHD though. Plus, a race with 2 RHD and LA+3 can still buy the LA off pre-epic!