A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    drack's Avatar

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    Default problems with controlling undead V3.5

    pleas ignore my horrible spelling



    OK so I have created my first race/class (class exclusively for the race it was designed for) and I seem to have run into a roadblock. This is my first time on this site so please correct me if I am misusing it. So the idea of this class is to first of all be creepy, and second of all to utilize the bodies of fallen foes in a variety of ways allowing the class much flexibility as to how to do whatever it's doing. Traditional these creatures serve as "medicine men" for a remote area in a far away multiverse. Basically they serve the purpose of old wise man, crazy loon who lives in the mountons, village creep, healer, and the dude to whome you give the deciesed to be taken care of (such that they don't bread deseas, take up space, etc.), and from this the race, class, and commonly characteristic are simply referred to as medicine men (plural) or the Medicine Man (singular) They resemble ghouls with ghostly pale skin stretched over a hunched and boney form. In truth they are large but they are more confortable hunched and therefor their size is effectivly decreased to small for the vast majority of their lives not revealing the full grotesqueness of their true figure, but all the same giving them an immensely disturbing air.

    Mechanics:
    -(small or large size depending on whether or not they are hunched over or not. speed is 20ft when hunched or 40ft standing straight, but their anatomy only allows them to stand up straight for small periods of time and even than they have horrible posture resembling that of a physically week zombie.)
    -they are negative energy creatures
    -they are immune to poison, sleep, disease, and death effects (they don't sleep and they eat through preparing their magic (see below)).
    +2 racial bonus on intimidate (just read an article on how dangerous this sort of thing can be so i'm open to suggestions but keep in mind that even the spell list is somewhat based on creeping others out (hence the living in surrounding caves).
    -can see in any darkness
    -due to their anatomy they are only physically capable of one language, but they can get the jest of any language that they hear for a short while, so they tend to need a medium to translate for whomever happens to be talking to it. The one language they do speak is called "The Whisper of Ka-Dul" Ka-Dul is their deity and in truth an immensely powerful shadow creature that has toppled many pantheons of deities and is slowly devouring the plane of shadow going for a reunification of all the multyverses into one plane, but is so far away that within their lifetimes they would be incapable of reaching it. (sorry sidetracked) The language it's self consists of many low moans and screeches which settle into the background unnerving all who hear it. This is their native language that no other spices can naturally imitate, and when intentionally directed at undead it's meaning slowly sinks into their bones chilling them more so than they naturally are, such that slowly the meaning becomes clear to them.
    -medicine men are proficient with daggers and light armor (though they seldom bother with either).
    -Base attack bonus and saves are the same as clerics and druids
    -d4 HP
    -rebulk undead as of 1st level
    -can command undead as clerics, but Medicine Men also add their Cha mod to their HD of commendable undead each level (note this doesn't apply to animate dead spells)
    now here is where it gets fun and is still under development
    spells: Medicine men prepare spells through channeling negative energy into a deceased body with HD equal to or greater than the spell level of the desired spell (can't be an undead). through this process all but the scull withers into dust, and within the skull resides the fully prepared spell. The skull must be commanded (as in command undead) in order to be cast, therefor excess spells can be prepared, but than one finds ones self doing command undead checks on ones own spells possibly in the middle of combat. (can only create/command spells with spell level equal to half or less the Medicine man's level) each spell has HD equal to it's spell level, and 5 Hp/HD and 5 hardness. The skull is consumed in the casting. Spells that animate dead in any way utilize the body used therefor eliminating the options of choosing a corps during the actual casting.

    now here is my problem (and I will go on to describe the rest of the race/class) problem is I need to be level 195 in order to have the spells prepared that a druid or cleric would have at level 20 (and the spells are mostly from those lists), so i'm wondering how far if any can I stretch the command undead without making my class entirely unbalanced. Bear in mind that I don't need all that 195 HD of commandable undead I would just rather be able to have more than 2 level 9 spells at level 20 and I would rather not use Items so my primary question is do you think that I could perhaps double or triple the commendable undead limit without making it too unbalanced?

    also as a fun ability they have Lift undead which starts out as 5 at 10th level and doubles at level 15 and 20 and so on such that at level 20 it may lift 20 undead. now what this dose is as follows: It allows medicine men to channel negative energy through other bones making the equivalent of swords and shields out of different bones rather than making spells out of the creature's skulls. This too consumes the body and the swords/shields have 5 HP (and 1 HD) per an HD of the body used. The swords do 1d6 damage per round and have hardness 5, keep in mind this is less health and attack than a skeleton of any HD would do so long as they are at least medium size. The shields have hardness 10 and can lock on to any one creature (one per shield) and wild themselves to deflect any attack that creature may preform. both can move at a speed of 20 ft per turn (though attacking or blocking is regarded as a free action of sorts since any skeleton could move that speed and still attack (or move double that). Each of there takes up one floating undead and their HD out of the total one could command with the animate dead spell (still looking for options on the whole commanding so many undead thing but I believe what could be covered by the animate dead spell should be sufficient for this ability.) This ability allows it to survive a more forward roll despite it's lowered con and d4 HP.

    I know this is a strange approach to magecraft but I am looking for helpful suggestions to maintain balance all the same.


    SPELLS:
    level 0:
    cure minor wounds
    detect magic
    inflict minor wounds
    know direction
    light
    flare
    (All spells with light cast an eerie purple light which I for got to state above is also the color of their eyes, but their eyes don't glow. They are also hare less.)

    level 1:
    bane
    cause fear
    command
    cure minor wounds
    deathwatch
    detect undead
    doom
    entangle (with shadows rather than vegetation)
    inflict light wounds
    obscureness mist
    comprehend languages
    Reaving aura
    summon undead I
    (rather than going with the standard summon undead my DM has allowed me to simply follow the summon spell trend of anything with CR equal to or down to one less than the summon undead number (ex I means CR 0-1) rather than the tiny summon undead lists provided therefor allowing up to summon undead IX)

    level 2:
    cure moderate wounds
    darkness
    death knell
    desecrate
    enthrall
    genital repose
    hold person
    inflict moderate wounds
    summon undead II
    undetectable alignment
    zone of truth
    boneskin (as stone skin)
    chill metal
    escalating enfeeblement

    level 3:
    Animate dead
    bestow curse
    contagion
    cure serious wounds
    deeper darkness
    dispel magic
    glyph of warding
    helping hand
    inflict serious wounds
    meld into stone
    remove curse
    speak with dead
    summon undead III
    poison
    bottle of smoke
    ring of blades

    level 4:
    cure critical wounds
    death ward
    divination (consults bones like a fortune teller)
    inflict critical wounds
    status
    tongues
    rusting grasp
    wither limb
    doom tide
    poison needles
    wall of bones
    Vecna's infernal whisper
    touch of years

    level 5:
    break enchantment
    circle of doom
    greater command
    raise dead
    slay living
    summon undead V
    true seeing
    unhallow
    Awaken undead
    wall of bone (this one is a wall of stone made of bones rather than stone)
    Night's caress revive undead
    quillblast (bone fragments instead of quills)
    freezing fog

    level 6:
    Animate objects
    anti-life shell
    bone barrier (as blade barrier but with bones)
    create undead
    greater dispelling
    greater glyph of warding
    harm
    heal
    summon undead VI
    word of recall
    stone tell
    ghoul gauntlet
    arrow of bone

    level 7:
    blasphemy
    regenerate
    repulsion
    resurrection
    summon undead VII
    creeping doom

    level 8:
    anti-magic field
    create greater undead
    Greater undead ally (as greater plainer ally)
    summon undead VIII
    symbol
    unholy aura
    finger of death
    veil of undeath

    level 9:
    Astral projection
    energy drain
    Gate (may call undeads)
    soul bind
    summon undead IX
    true resurrection
    sympathy
    foresight


    suggestions with spells are also welcomed but pleas include spell information (what it dose)with the spell

    Adventuring: Medicine Men rarely ever leave their caves (which commonly contain many deceased left about. When they do go they usually are as a representative of their people backing a cause (usually used as a form of temporary exile), they go out to gather new information about the world around them (gathering maps and cultures, as well as more commonly than not getting hopelessly lost despite any maps), or if they simply go mad and decide to embark on their Dul-Kazar in which they embark from their home to wonder the earth seeking death and spreading Ka-Dul (or spreading the shadow)


    Characteristics: Medicine men aren't proficient with many weapons or armors relying solely on their ability to control the dead in ways never dreamed of by "the outside races". They tend to be gaunt hunched over forms constantly murmuring their atrocious tung from the shadows.

    Alignment: Medicine Men tend to be aloof from the world concerning themselves solely with concern for the villages to which they are Medicine Men to, therefor they tend to be considered neutral by common standards. though they could also be considered evil by others in that they channel power very similar to divine Necromancy (though it is not wholly divine).

    Religion: Medicine Men are the only true worshipers of Ka-Dul which is a shadowy creature in a multiverse so far away that even devoting their entire lives to it none could reach Ka-Dul, and knowing this none attempt to do so. Despite this Ka-Dul is slowly devouring the plane of shadow binding all multiverses together. fortunately (yet unfortunately to the Medicine Men) Ka-Dul will not reach anywhere close to the material plane within hundreds of generations of Medicine Men, though they still feel Ka-Dul's slow approach throughout their many millennia long lifespans.

    Background: Medicine Men is a race as well as a class and therefor one is born a Medicine man or one isn't (there is no interspecies breading)

    Races: only Medicine Men (the race) can be Medicine Men (the class)

    Other classes: as the cleric is the glue holding the party together and everyone's friend, Medicine Men tend to unnerve the party and cause severe agitation. This is because in a room of the creepiest dudes in the aria this guy is particularity so. (see why in the link below)

    Role: Though Medicine Men specialize in Knowledge and healing checks as would be expected of a village healer a Medicine Man's combat style tends to be fairly aggressive and involve a few too many flying bone fragments for most people's comfort. Medicine Men tend to favor the rear in combat summoning, casting, and commanding their way out of difficulties, though they will not hesitate to take a more frontward stance though it may not maintain their naturally long lifespan.
    Last edited by drack; 2010-08-01 at 07:47 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: problems with controlling undead V3.5

    Well, if you give them a special Animate Dead spell-like ability that is used to create these skulls, you can use the double caster level HD limit instead of rebuke's caster level = HD.

    Also, ignoring domain spells and having 0 level spells count as half a HD, you need 207 HD worth of command. Which means you still have to be level 104 for the 20th level casting....

    Let them add their Charisma modifier to it... and then they can command roughly 2 + 3 HD per caster level... Eh, that still only gives 100 HD of control...

    Though by then, they should have jacked their charisma up... They should have at LEAST a base +5 modifier... let them bump...

    Wait. Okay. Give them a class feature that lets them add their charisma modifier to their control per caster level. That will nearly double their control when they get it.

    Then, later on, give another class feature that simply doubles their control.

    At 20th level, they'll have 200 HD of control if they have a +3 Charisma. They shouldn't be that low at that level, but that's a good baseline. If they have a +5, they have 280 HD of control. That's enough to help account for some bonus spells that the clerics or druid might be getting.

    Also, I think the idea is extremely nifty.

    And I've seen worse spelling. It's just that some of your typos are rather amusing...

    ...an immensely powerful shadow creature that has toppled many pantaloons of deities...
    Pantaloons are a kind of trousers. You inadvertently insinuated it is a divine sexual conquistador. I think you meant Pantheon.

    195 HD of commendable undead
    Good luck finding that many undead servants worthy of praise.

    But yeah, don't feel bad. I've seen way, WAAAAAY worse on these very forums. You're fine.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: problems with controlling undead V3.5

    ha-ha
    thank you for catching those humorous typos (which I will leave up for humor)
    Also level 0 spells will count as zero just because being able to cast 2000 cantraps at one time shouldn't hurt the balance of the class (plus you better have 2000 dead dudes to do that anyways)
    Also I don't need quite as many spells at once since I can command more I just don't want to be doing it too much. I like the idea of a cha mod but i'm thinking it would be too unbalanced if it was multiplied by one's level, perhaps by their highest spell level (ex level 17 cha 16 would get +24) but i'm still waiting for some game balance obsessed maniac (take it as a complement or else) to come by and say "this no, this adjust, that intimidate is too high, don't futs with u'r ability scors too much, and chew with your mouth closed. "
    Last edited by drack; 2010-07-20 at 07:21 PM.

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    Default Re: problems with controlling undead V3.5

    Don't leave typos in for humor.

    You could also try Controlable spell levels = HD * 2 or *3 or whatever...


    The idea of having a unique race-class combination locked together is something I haven't seen before, outside of simply creature types, which are, of course, not unique to a single creature.
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    Default Re: problems with controlling undead V3.5

    If I remember correctly, the Dread Necromancer has their Charisma modifier added to their per-level control limit, so it has precedent. The Dread Necromancer comes from Heroes of Horror.

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    Default Re: problems with controlling undead V3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    The idea of having a unique race-class combination locked together is something I haven't seen before, outside of simply creature types, which are, of course, not unique to a single creature.
    Thank you I'll take that as a complement.

    You could also try Controlable spell levels = HD * 2 or *3 or whatever...


    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    You could also try Controlable spell levels = HD * 2 or *3 or whatever...
    I suppose I could, but I also want it to limit the number of usable spells/ undead, such that I don,t get unlimited spells (perhaps even a few less since I can prepare multiple times per a day) so I don't want it to be too easy for me, I just want to leave the flexibility of being able to have normal undeads, spells, and/or the whole lift undead Idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Don't leave typos in for humor.
    Fine. (as I said above even though the site thinks I used this account for 4 years I really just started yesterday XD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma Kode View Post
    If I remember correctly, the Dread Necromancer has their Charisma modifier added to their per-level control limit, so it has precedent. The Dread Necromancer comes from Heroes of Horror.
    cool, if there is a precedent that helps out allot, but could you pleas include it (don't have book)=p


    Also I forgot to mention in the first part that the lift undead has a limit in that undead can't exceed a 60' radius around you, and that you may also lift skulls, only you can't cast them unless they are within your space (this helps you not have to keep so many skulls on hand, leaving the opportunity to leave them i;n a bag of holding (or other similar item) and simply allow them to float out and hold themselves. (Imagine the pain of having all your spells be scrolls that only you can cast, but they are bulky enough that you can't carry many outside of magical means at once) In regard to this limit of holding spells keepin mind that level 25 one can lift 40 undead, and level 30 that goes to 80 (around which the animate dead limit takes hold, and it is simply a flashy way to have a ton of spells so to speak "on the tip of your tongue"
    also forgot to mention it itends to have knolage, healing, and other skills dealing with the such (4+int)

    Also keep in mind I am looking for advice on the class in general as well

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Don't leave typos in for humor.
    (this is also another type of help I am looking for...I guss...)
    Last edited by drack; 2010-07-21 at 07:52 AM.

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