[3.5] Newbie Cleric

[The Red Geist]

My DM has set up a new game and our normal three man team is being joined by two newbie players. Originally I wasn't planning on participating due to time constraints, but since a couple of my friends could use some advice, I figured that was reason enough to play (and if anything have my character written out of the plot later). The Party's composition is pretty standard: Fighter (straight out of the PHB with no ToB assistance), Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard (my character). My Wizard is the only optimized character with the Fighter coming as a close second since the DM really isn't that knowledgeable on character building.

I took a read over both of the new players character sheets to see if I could assist them somehow--the Rogue player showed no interest in any advice, and has selected a large amount of useless feats (Toughness, for example, with no intention of Prestiging.) Now when I got a look at the Cleric's feats, I knew she needed help, but she was significantly more responsive to assistance. Thing is my Wizard is my first casting class and I don't know much of anything about Cleric casting! I was hoping for some suggestions for Feats that might make things a bit easier on her.

She's a level 7 Human Cleric of Pelor. Domains are Healing and Sun. Her intention was to play the party healer since no one else felt like it, sadly. We have the PHB, PHB II, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, UA, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, and Book of Exalted Deeds available, and the DM has access to quite a few others.

I figured Extend Spell and Persistent Spell would be helpful and I have no problem explaining how metamatgics work for her, but any other help in picking feats would be greatly appreciated.

[Prodan]

Zen Archery is nice.

[Superglucose]

Honestly the first step is to let her know that she won't need to be the party healer in combat if she doesn't want to. Let her know that healing in combat isn't the best idea and that she should protect people from getting hit, and then after the combat is done, heal them.

If she's going for Persistent Spell she should get Divine Metamagic: Persist otherwise where's not much point. And then Extra Turning, plus any of the feats needed to get into Servant of Pelor.

By the way she should shoot for Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[Prodan]

Persist Lesser Vigor is fun. Persist Mass Lesser Vigor even more so.

[gallagher]

you wouldnt go too amiss by suggesting using DMM persist and picking a domain different from healing. you can still be offensive as a cleric while still healing. see if the DM will approve of a Divine Unseen Seer, and take levels in that.

persist divine power and righteous might as soon as possible.

[Coidzor]

Persist Lesser Vigor is fun. Persist Mass Lesser Vigor even more so.

Wait... one can do that?

What's her alignment?

Oh, yeah, also, Divine Oracle's a good PrC to look at.

As is church inquisitor if she's LG.

Definitely radiant servant of Pelor if she has healing domain as well as sun domain.

[Superglucose]

Persist Lesser Vigor is fun. Persist Mass Lesser Vigor even more so.

Neither of those work since the maximum amount of healing you can get from Lesser Vigor is 15 HP and while I don't remember the max from Mass Lesser Vigor, there is maximum.

EDIT: Well, it *does* work.

Here's how it works: Cleric casts "Persistent Lesser Vigor" on you in the morning. At 3:15 pm you take 10 points of damage. At 3:16 pm you are back to full health. At 4:27 pm, you take a further 10 points of damage, but you only get 5 HP back.

So yes, it works, but not the way you expect it to. The cap isn't on duration, it's on HP gained.

[Zaq]

A first-time player will probably be happier with a Favored Soul than with a proper Cleric. They're a lot weaker, yes, but they have about an order of magnitude less bookkeeping. Having a spell list is worlds easier than having access to every spell on your list, even if you only stick to the PHB.

If you can convince her that she'll still be the voice of Pelor bringing his burning hate light and life to the masses, I think she'll probably have an easier time of it. Help her pick her spells so she doesn't shoot herself in the foot, but honestly, first-time players should not play prepared divine full casters.

[2xMachina]

Neither of those work since the maximum amount of healing you can get from Lesser Vigor is 15 HP and while I don't remember the max from Mass Lesser Vigor, there is maximum.

EDIT: Well, it *does* work.

Here's how it works: Cleric casts "Persistent Lesser Vigor" on you in the morning. At 3:15 pm you take 10 points of damage. At 3:16 pm you are back to full health. At 4:27 pm, you take a further 10 points of damage, but you only get 5 HP back.

So yes, it works, but not the way you expect it to. The cap isn't on duration, it's on HP gained.

Where do you see that? It says it gives Fast Healing until the spell ends.

[Eldariel]

Where do you see that? It says it gives Fast Healing until the spell ends.

In short, it's a silly reading on the spell. Since its Duration becomes 24 Hours instead of whatever is written on there, it should work just fine. Mass Lesser Vigor is a great way to avoid healing outside combat. In combat, you'll mostly want Heal (the spell), Revivify scrolls (though obviously, you should avoid needing to use them) and spells that you can use to make your people not dead in the first place.

Outside combat, use Wands of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds to heal, or if you have DMM: Persistent, the mentioned Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor on the party. And yeah, Mass Lesser Vigor is the one that actually works; normal Lesser Vigor is a touch range spell and thus not fixed range (depends on your natural reach) so it's not really legal.

[Felyndiira]

I don't actually know why so many people are suggesting DMM: Persist. For a cleric of Pelor (no planning or undeath), DMM: Persist is a heavy, three-feat investment that expands to four if you need Extra Turning. Even then, barring nightstick cheese, you can only pull it off once on divine power/mass lesser vigor before it expires, and barring CL cheese, she now has four feats that can be nullified by a successful dispel check. Sure, it's easy to say "take this, persist Divine Power, and be done with it," but given its cost, it's not something I would give to a beginner.

If she likes healing, though, and wouldn't mind playing Radiant Servant of Pelor, I would highly recommend that she take the spontaneous domain casting [healing domain] ACF. Depending on your DM's standpoint, Empowered Healing/Supreme Healing may apply to all cure/heal spells, or it may only apply to spells cast directly from the healing domain. In the latter case, spontaneous domain casting means that she loses nothing (she loses the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells and gains...the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells), she gain the ability to cast Heal and Mass Heal spontaneously, and to top it off, all of her spontaneously cast cure and heal spells are auto-empowered and/or auto-maximized.

Instead of making her use up her turn undead attempts to fuel divine metamagic, consider recommending some of the other divine feats that feeds from TU attempts, such as divine vigor. Turn Undead is actually very effective if your campaign features undead, and moreso with the sun domain - you shouldn't encourage her to bomb all of it on a single persist divine power when she's this early into the game.

[Otodetu]

Is it not sort of bad to have some characters being optimized wizards and clerics and another player a toughness rogue?

Better if everyone is dull and basic when it involves noobs, and scale the campaign accordingly.

[KingoftheTrees]

Don't forget Devotion feats. I have a character (cleric of Pelor/Radiant Servant of Pelor) with the ACF Felyndiira mentioned in the campaign I'm playing in. The party wants me to survive. They've put themselves in harm's way to save my life. Have your cleric forego dmm persist. Have her take Healing Devotion (it's a life saver), and Improved Domain Power: Healing (from Dragon 342) to turn any conjuration (healing) spell with a range of Touch to a range of Close. Divine Spell Power is also a good divine feat. Couple that with a circlet of persuasion and anything that increases her turning level and she'll be amazing.

[The Red Geist]

Is it not sort of bad to have some characters being optimized wizards and clerics and another player a toughness rogue?

Better if everyone is dull and basic when it involves noobs, and scale the campaign accordingly.

The previous pre-made campaign I played with the DM left the party near dead after every battle until eventually our Rogue did die (and quit playing). The only reason we managed to survive any of the encounters was because I rolled well on a Barbarian aiming for the Primeval Prestige, plus our Cleric managed to turn a group of skeletons that was killing the party. He doesn't scale back campaigns since he doesn't make them. That being the case, I'd rather not wipe due to the DM not caring how weak our party actually is.

If she likes healing, though, and wouldn't mind playing Radiant Servant of Pelor, I would highly recommend that she take the spontaneous domain casting [healing domain] ACF. Depending on your DM's standpoint, Empowered Healing/Supreme Healing may apply to all cure/heal spells, or it may only apply to spells cast directly from the healing domain.

I'm trying to avoid Prestige classes since the DM goes by the book in terms of multiclassing, as silly as that is. I'll look into some of the spontaneous casting domains though. Thanks for the tip!

Honestly the first step is to let her know that she won't need to be the party healer in combat if she doesn't want to. Let her know that healing in combat isn't the best idea and that she should protect people from getting hit, and then after the combat is done, heal them.

She seems to want to pursue a support role and only fight in absolutely necessary. I'm trying to work with her to help her better understand the game since it can be complicated for a newbie--granted a level seven pre-made campaign isn't likely the most newb friendly place to get started but hey, more people usually means more fun anyway.

Have your cleric forego dmm persist. Have her take Healing Devotion (it's a life saver), and Improved Domain Power: Healing (from Dragon 342) to turn any conjuration (healing) spell with a range of Touch to a range of Close. Divine Spell Power is also a good divine feat. Couple that with a circlet of persuasion and anything that increases her turning level and she'll be amazing.

Are both of these feats from Dragon Magazine? I don't know if we have access to those. I'll scan around though, and thank you for the tips on the items since that's another section that needs work on.

I'm going to scan over some of the feats in the books I borrowed, see if anything fits the suggestions you all have given me thus far. Really appreciate the help though. If anyone has the names of the books that coincide with some of the suggested feats that would be really helpful.

[Sc00by]

The 'Devotion' Feats (Healing, knowledge, etc) are in Complete Champion

I'd give another vote to to Radient Servant of Pelor. It's ace! :)

And if you really want to DMM Quicken may suit the player more than persist allowing 2 spells to be cast per round (until you run out of Turn attempts anyway )

Edit:

I'm trying to avoid Prestige classes since the DM goes by the book in terms of multiclassing, as silly as that is. I'll look into some of the spontaneous casting domains though. Thanks for the tip!

By the book?

[2xMachina]

I'm pretty sure, RAW, PrC does not have Multiclass penalties.

[Optimystik]

I'm pretty sure, RAW, PrC does not have Multiclass penalties.

Indeed they do not

[The Red Geist]

I'm pretty sure, RAW, PrC does not have Multiclass penalties.

Indeed they do not

Huh! Didn't even realize--I've never gotten a chance to hit a Prestige Class since I usually just multiclass. I'll run the PrC idea by her and see how she likes it. If she's interested then I'll propose Radiant Servant of Pelor.

As for items that increase turning level (we started out with average gold for level 7, the Fighter, Ranger, and myself are the only ones who bought magical items) I'm guessing the SRD would be a good place to start looking. Would Pearls of Power give her Cleric the same kind of support as they would my Wizard? I think that might be another good item for her to have.

[Mnemnosyne]

A first-time player will probably be happier with a Favored Soul than with a proper Cleric. They're a lot weaker, yes, but they have about an order of magnitude less bookkeeping. Having a spell list is worlds easier than having access to every spell on your list, even if you only stick to the PHB.

If you can convince her that she'll still be the voice of Pelor bringing his burning hate light and life to the masses, I think she'll probably have an easier time of it. Help her pick her spells so she doesn't shoot herself in the foot, but honestly, first-time players should not play prepared divine full casters.

Not sure I fully agree. With a spontaneous caster it's easy to pick bad spell choices and ruin yourself forever unless the DM allows you to re-choose your spells at some point, with a prepared caster you learn 'ok that spell isn't that great, I won't memorize it again'.

The trick is properly handling it. Go through the spell list, note down interesting ones, and consider that your operational spell list. For most situations, those are probably the only spells you need to worry about, so you don't have to run through the PHB and 10 splatbooks every morning when you memorize spells. Then just update this operational spell list every couple weeks based on experience. After a few sessions, look through the spell lists again, you'll probably see a couple 'hey that coulda been useful' spells, and add them to your operational list, while removing some that were either underwhelming in practice or you never actually got any use out of.

Plus, if you devote one slot per level (once you have several slots per level) to being an experimental spell slot, you can memorize all the quirky and weird spells and try them out as you go along, so you get practical, hands-on experience with a whole lot of spells, therefore building your experience for future choices. And as a cleric, if the situation to use the spell never comes about, you can still spontaneously burn it as a Cure spell when you need to.