Monks

[zephiros]

I was just wondering, I've seen quite a few people talking about monks with quite a bit of contempt. I'm playing a monk at the moment, and it's not my favourite character yet, but it's not bad. Is there any reason why people dislike monks in particular?

They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.

[Prodan]

All your questions answered.

[balistafreak]

They have some quite good abilities, class abilities, random feats that benefit those abilities, if you use quarterstaff and unarmed you threaten Attacks of Opportunity on a two-square radius, and their progression bonuses are quite impressive.

This is what we all think at first. Monks have some EXTREMELY good stuff in their first 1-2 levels - bonus feats, unarmed strike, Wisdom to AC. Then it all goes to hell.

How so? While the Monk gets all sorts of "new and cool abilities", he gets them at a level where all the other classes have moved on to something new a long time ago, most notably Wizards, who can fall slowly, inflict SoDs, and teleport far earlier and more often than Monks.

Their abilities in a vacuum aren't "bad". It's just that when you get them, they're hilariously underwhelming. Same thing with their "progression" bonuses; similiar to the "trap" that Monkey Grip feats to wield larger weapons for larger dice are, the most efficent way to boost damage is not to roll a bigger die but to add +huge bonuses.

(Monks do have the dubious honor of being able to do everything they do naked, but let's face it: in most situations, if you're naked, you've already lost.)

Quarterstaves are not reach weapons. For that matter, I can't think of any monk weapons that are reach weapons. Sorry, mate.

... there's a lot more to it but I'll let others explain.

One thing to make clear: personal experience =!= numbers. There are solid benchmarks set at what other characters can do. If you're going to butt in with a comment that "my Monk worked out for me", good for you, but that doesn't make them any more powerful than they were. And remember that things that any player can do (creative thinking, tactics, even cross-class UMD) does not make the Monk class itself better.

We're not saying you can't have a good time with a Monk (although it might be a little harder if your DM is roll-oriented). We're only here to discuss the power of the class, period.

[DragoonWraith]

The problems of the Monk are myriad. One, it's class features just aren't that good. Unarmed Strike damage is decent, but you can't enhance your fists which is crippling later on. Flurry imparts an attack bonus penalty on top of your mediocre BAB, so you'll miss much more often than you should, and you don't get extra damage like a Rogue in order to make your extra attacks really count. More importantly, you can only Flurry on a Full Attack, which means you can't use your other major scaling feature, the Fast Movement, at the same time.

The Wis to AC bonus is nice. The extra bonuses, not so much. Evasion's solid, and there are some decent choices for your feats in the first two levels. Beyond Monk 2, though, you really get very nearly nothing at all besides your unarmed damage.

The pseudo-slowfall is insultingly bad. Immunity to poison and disease is not a very big deal. The /day and /week limitations on your higher level features make them useless.

On top of all of that, the Monk suffers hideously from MAD - Multiple Ability Dependence. The Monk needs high Str, high Dex, high Con, high Wis, and really could use some decent Int. Even if you got ridiculously lucky with your Ability score rolls, they're not going to increase well and it will cost you a fortune in magic items to keep them all reasonable.

[Prodan]

(Monks do have the dubious honor of being able to do everything they do naked, but let's face it: in most situations, if you're naked, you've already lost.)

Sorcerers with Eschew Materials do it better. And they have larger... Charisma.

[Optimystik]

What I dislike about them is their lack of focus. They are built around mobility, but their damage suffers unless they are standing still. They are designed for melee, but are penalized for wearing the armor they need to survive in it. Their mobility in turn encourages ranged combat, yet their ranged weapons are laughable. They are built around weaponless fighting, but making their fists overcome damage reduction requires a deal more effort than doing the same for a weapon.

Then they have a bunch of seemingly random and incoherent abilities, presumably because the designers thought they would be "cool." What purpose are Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Empty Body, and Abundant Step meant to serve, and why does the monk have them? And some are just plain weak, like Wholeness of Body and Quivering Palm. (1/week?)

I love the idea behind them and think they are very cool thematically, but the execution was abysmal. They are very like Soulknives in that respect.

[zephiros]

Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.

Edit: Wow, several more people replied while I was writing this. :P

Alright thanks everybody. May see about changing that up then.

[balistafreak]

Sorcerers with Eschew Materials do it better. And they have larger... Charisma.

Technically they can't Eschew away expensive material components... but touche.

Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.

Aha!

1st level Monks are pretty good. Bonus feats, yum.
Same with 2nd level Monks. More bonus feats, yum.

But then the class falls apart.

A LOT of very good melee builds start with a 1-2 level dip of Monk. These builds are also completely playable from 1 to 20.

[aivanther]

Monks can be fun, however when it comes to optimization, they just can't cut it. A haphazardly optimized most anything else can beat an optimized monk that isn't just a lvl 2 monk.

Obligatory reposting of my demotivational poster

Spoiler

Show

Now as to what that picture really means. Monks really are like Mr Satan. They can trounce a commoner, they can even take some monsters out. Heck, they might get lucky on a BBEG. However, when it comes to the powers in the world, he's a small fry. When push comes to shove between OMGWTF powers, they just have to much MAD, Inconsistent ability synergy, and just not enough oomph to do much in a big smack down fight.

[zephiros]

A LOT of very good melee builds start with a 1-2 level dip of Monk. These builds are also completely playable from 1 to 20.

Ah, in that case I may see about multiclassing. :P Thanks for the tip.

[zephiros]

On the mention of MAD, we were having a bit of a discussion yesterday (just some people from our group) about Clerics suffering from that as well.

They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)
Good Con for the same reason
Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

I was wondering about peoples' thoughts on that, and how it may be remedied? Either dedicating the cleric to melee/casting exclusivity? Beyond that I'm not really sure.

[DragoonWraith]

If you're a level 1 Monk, take Monastic Training (Ardent) for your 2nd level Bonus Feat, and then take Ardent at 3rd and take Tashalatora for your 3rd level Feat. You'll be essentially what the Monk should have been to begin with.

Monastic Training is in Eberron Campaign Setting, but all it does is let you multiclass between Monk and any one other class of your choice - which is pretty useless, as you don't ever want to return to Monk. But it's a prerequisite for Tashalatora in Secrets of Sarlona, which will allow any one Psionic class that you have Monastic Training to progress your Monk features (I know it covers your unarmed strike damage; that's all that's really important).

The Ardent is a good Wisdom-based Psionicist from Complete Psionic, which matches the Monk well mechanically and flavorfully. If you don't have Complete Psionic, the Psychic Warrior will do just fine, though.

[Optimystik]

They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)

Nope

Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

Contrary to popular belief, Clerics don't need Charisma at all. Its primary purpose is turning undead, which is the weakest thing you can do with turning attempts.

The monk's MADness is not as easily overcome. If you dump Wisdom then your AC drops, and you can't wear armor to replace it without losing your other abilities like your speed. But Wisdom doesn't contribute to your to-hit or damage, so pumping it just makes you ineffective. Dropping Dexterity is even worse, and you also need Str and Con. You could dump Int but Monks actually have a decent skill list. That only leaves Charisma, and you can't get much mileage out of that.

[DragoonWraith]

Higher Charisma does give you more uses of (whatever you're using Turn Undead to do), though.

Still, you don't need high Charisma, you just need decent Charisma. A Monk needs high Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. Putting a 14 in Charisma and grabbing a +2 or +4 item after they become quite cheap is enough.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

On the mention of MAD, we were having a bit of a discussion yesterday (just some people from our group) about Clerics suffering from that as well.

They need good Str to take part in melee (which is part of the class)
Good Con for the same reason
Good Wis and Cha, and many of their class skills have an Int base, whereas Dex also helps a bit in melee combat.

I was wondering about peoples' thoughts on that, and how it may be remedied? Either dedicating the cleric to melee/casting exclusivity? Beyond that I'm not really sure.

Everyone who is alive needs Con. Int, Cha, and Dex can all be dumped/set to 10 for a cleric. Str can run the gamut. Given 28 PB, a cleric should throw a 16 in Wis, a 16 in Con, an 8 in Cha, a 10 in Int, a 14 in Str, and an 8 in Dex. You could lower the Con a little bit to sure up the rest, but I'm a fan of my HPs. They then proceed to MAGIC away their lower scores, turning them into big numbers.

[Sc00by]

On the subject of Monks; what does and doesn't stack from Monk to Swordsage (unarmed)? If a character was to be Monk 2/swordsage 10 how much monk stuff has an effective level of 12? (or 17 with a monks belt I guess)

And can you double up the WIS bonus to AC? As the unarmed Swordsage loses his light armour proficiency I'm guessing that his bonus must work when unarmed or else it's kinda pointless?

With Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse you can make the monk less MAD, though that's 2 feats... There isn't a damage version of insightful strike is there?

(just to post something that's almost relevant to the thread)

[Tinydwarfman]

Tier System for Classes. Learn it, love it. It the best way to learn about relative power levels.

[Greenish]

On the subject of Monks; what does and doesn't stack from Monk to Swordsage (unarmed)? If a character was to be Monk 2/swordsage 10 how much monk stuff has an effective level of 12? (or 17 with a monks belt I guess)

Unarmed swordsage gains monk's Unarmed Strike class feature, so it should stack.

And can you double up the WIS bonus to AC? As the unarmed Swordsage loses his light armour proficiency I'm guessing that his bonus must work when unarmed or else it's kinda pointless?

By RAW, swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor, but RAI it's supposed to work without armor too, according to sage (and common sense).

With Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse you can make the monk less MAD, though that's 2 feats... There isn't a damage version of insightful strike is there?

Not as a feat, but there are a few class features that add wis to damage. Soulbow and some OA class…

[Prodan]

By RAW, swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor, but RAI it's supposed to work without armor too, according to sage (and common sense).

Errata corrects it iirc to work when unarmored.

[kamikasei]

Yeah, no, I'm not trying to say it's worked out particularly well for me, we're only level one so far, I just didn't notice any glaring terribleness yet, and was wondering what I was missing on, thanks for the description.

Monks are, objectively, not a very good class. However, like warlocks (used to be), a lot of the scorn heaped on them here is because you get people new to optimization popping up to claim they're the BEST CLASS EVAR. It's perfectly possible to play a monk and do fine (unlike, say, a truenamer where you will in fact find yourself getting noticeably worse as you go unless you're putting in deliberate effort). It's just that the class seems to attract easily-refutable boasts of relative uberness like flies to, well, what's left of a monk after an optimization cage match.

Errata corrects it iirc to work when unarmored.

Are you sure this isn't... how to put it delicately... a lie? Or more charitably, are you mistaking something else for the infamously incomplete ToB errata?

[Tyndmyr]

Learn the tiers, yup.

Monk makes a good dip for some builds...it's just really bad to use more than, oh, about two levels of it. Like fighter, but more so.

In fact, a monk 2/fighter 2 would probably own a monk 4.

Consider what a monk gets from levels 3 and 4. +2 sv vs enchantment, 1d8 attacks, slow fall(20 ft), and the ability to act as if his fists are magic weapons. Sure, they all sound good, but lets examine them in detail.

The fighter dip, by comparison, gets a juicy array of proficiencies, more hit points, and two feats. Total save boosts are equal, though the fighter dip gets you it all to fort, instead of spread around. Most importantly though are the feats.

+2 save vs enchantment. This is one of the most commonly dropped schools. Also, one of the easiest to get complete immunity to. More to the point, it's a save boost vs only one school of magic. This is vastly inferior to say, +2 will saves, which takes only one feat to pick up.

1d8 attacks. Meh. The fighter can easily pick up weapons that do more damage than 1d8. Clear fighter win, even more so if the fighter gets at least a mw weapon.

Fists count as magic attacks. Meh, the fighter can pick up a magic sword. His attacks now both count as magic attacks AND get the bonus from it being a magic sword.

Slow fall 20 feet. This is pretty much worthless.

If you're worried about the scaling, consider the fun of dipping barbarian afterward. Monk 2/Fighter 2/Barb 2 may not be an ideal build, but it'll trash a monk 6, it's all core, and around this time, you should be considering PrCs anyhow.

[zephiros]

Having just found it, I was wondering about people's thoughts on the Drunken Master? Is monk the best way to get it? Is it worthwhile?

[Boci]

Having just found it, I was wondering about people's thoughts on the Drunken Master? Is monk the best way to get it? Is it worthwhile?

Fun, but not very good powerwise. If homebrew is allowed there is at least 1 fix I recall.

[tyckspoon]

^what he said. Drunken Master is one of the most entertaining classes around, but it's pretty weak; it inherits the Monk's problems and doesn't do a heck of a lot to fix them (there are some fun shenanigans you can get up to with improvised weaponry if your DM will go along with it, tho.)

[Dr.Epic]

I know they can't multiclass, but I never really do that anyway, so I was wondering if there was something in particular that people disliked.

They can multiclass, it's just that they can't ever regain monk levels though I see what you mean. Two other points:

Aren't there other classes with that same restriction? I thought paladins had the same thing with multiclassing?

Some prestige classes let you continue to gain levels in monk.

[Machiavellian]

Monks are okay in a group with one or two optimized PCs. In a group of all optimized, ya, monk falls on his face.

That being said, monk can still be good for filler

For instance: a Healbot Cleric can benefit from Wis to AC and Monk's speed boost (seeing as how combat isn't your Forte, dashing around, healing your buddies seems logical)

Likewise, a Toucher Cleric (I mean one who's primary damage is Inflict) can use Monk's Unarmed Strike to his advantage.

Even Paladin, who is MAD to the MAX can benefit (requires some tricky feat usage, mostly from Serenity and Ascetic (?) Knight). Sure, you won't have the AC of a normal Paly, but in exchange, you can remove the pesky need for CHA.

Sorcerer can benefit as well: Ascetic Mage. Removes WIS from the equation, you pump CHA, and voila, your AC jumps due to the CHA to AC and you still can cast. Plus, you are more mobile.

Here's one build that I used to use, using Monk as a "One Hit Wonder"

Race: Grey Elf
Class: Monk 5/Acolyte of the Fist 10/Initiate of Dragonic Secrets 9/Fist of the Forest 3/Drunken Master 3 (we went Epic. If you want 20th level, drop the last 2 PrCs and 4 off of IoDS)

In short, for 99% of all cases, Monk is a multiclasser's wet dream, but for Optimizers, Straight monk sucks like a Hoover

[Dr.Epic]

You should probably take Vow of Poverty. Let's face it, the feat was designed for monks.

[Snake-Aes]

You should probably take Vow of Poverty. Let's face it, the feat was designed for monks.

Yet, monks are the ones who take the hardest hit on potential power by losing access to magic gear.

[Machiavellian]

98% of the time, if you are a monk, you need AC, so VoP is not a nice thing to have, unless you can qualify for Acolyte of Peace, which is a whole new Can of Wyrms.

[Reynard]

It's Monk Thread time again!