BullRush Optimization

[Mongoose87]

I'm trying to think of ways that one could make one's bullrush as awesome as possible. Dungeoncrasher is an obvious start. If one could use the Feat Rogue variant to get the second level Dungeoncrasher damage twice, I think that would be a good idea.

One other thing I want to try is somehow getting a bullrush and an attack in the same action. I'd like to use Dungeoncrasher + Three Mountains style to both damage and debuff, at the same time.

Any ideas? Comments?

[Greenish]

One other thing I want to try is somehow getting a bullrush and an attack in the same action.

Knockback. Being a goliath also gets you +4 size bonus to Bull Rush check.

[Roc Ness]

To attack and bull rush at once, I can only think of two ways. One is knockback, as mentioned above, the other is whacking things while your mount bullrushes them...

[Mongoose87]

To attack and bull rush at once, I can only think of two ways. One is knockback, as mentioned above, the other is whacking things while your mount bullrushes them...

Somehow I think that would forfeit the Dungeoncrasher damage.

Does anyone have any idea whether trading a Feat Rogue feat for Dungeoncrasher would stack with regular Dungeoncrasher?

Where is knockback from?

[Greenish]

Somehow I think that would forfeit the Dungeoncrasher damage.

Unless your mount had the dungeon crasher. Leadership + intelligent magical beast + fighter levels…

Does anyone have any idea whether trading a Feat Rogue feat for Dungeoncrasher would stack with regular Dungeoncrasher?

Feat rogues can't take fighter AFCs, on account of them being fighter AFCs.

Where is knockback from?

Races of Stone.

[Mongoose87]

Isn't it generally accept that, if you use a variant to get a class feature that usually belongs to another class, you can trade that in for that class's ACFs?

[Greenish]

Isn't it generally accept that, if you use a variant to get a class feature that usually belongs to another class, you can trade that in for that class's ACFs?

It is? I can't recall seeing anyone (IRL or on boards) take an AFC to trade it for another class' AFC.

[Darrin]

I'm trying to think of ways that one could make one's bullrush as awesome as possible.

Obligatory link: Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of DOOM!

[Mongoose87]

It is? I can't recall seeing anyone (IRL or on boards) take an AFC to trade it for another class' AFC.

I've seen a thread dedicated to it on here, and on another board somewhere.

[AdamSmasher]

Here's a good start:

take fighter until you have dungeoncrasher maxed, take marshal to add charisma to you bull rush.

Be a ghost.

Take master of the Unseen Hand, get three levels.

Take the Evolved template from there on out.

And do what all these other guys are saying.

[dgnslyr]

Charging Minotaur, a 1st level Stone Dragon maneuver from ToB, does 2d6 + str on a successful bull rush, IIRC. Not a whole lot, but a nice cherry to put on top of the delicious cake of Dungeoncrashing fighter.

[true_shinken]

I've seen a thread dedicated to it on here, and on another board somewhere.

It's not RAW, I'm absolutely sure.

[Demons_eye]

It's not RAW, I'm absolutely sure.

I would argue if they have the features to give up they could gain the alternative class feature. Can you site anything that says otherwise or do you just believe that is not RAW?

[dextercorvia]

I would argue if they have the features to give up they could gain the alternative class feature. Can you site anything that says otherwise or do you just believe that is not RAW?

That is silly. Especially in this case, the only class feature they are giving up are bonus feats. The ACF states fighter, and therefore can only be fighter.

Or should my Transmuter get to Abrupt Jaunt, after all he has a familiar to give up?

[Demons_eye]

That is silly. Especially in this case, the only class feature they are giving up are bonus feats. The ACF states fighter, and therefore can only be fighter.

Or should my Transmuter get to Abrupt Jaunt, after all he has a familiar to give up?

Looking at the alternative class feature I don't see where is requires fighter, just fighter bonus feats which you gain from Feat Rogue

It says when you select this alternative class feature you do not gain the fighter bonus feat at the 2nd or 6th level.

[dextercorvia]

Looking at the alternative class feature I don't see where is requires fighter, just fighter bonus feats which you gain from Feat Rogue

It says when you select this alternative class feature you do not gain the fighter bonus feat at the 2nd or 6th level.

It's about a third of the way down the page, in the left hand column. It says:

FIGHTER

[Demons_eye]

It's about a third of the way down the page, in the left hand column. It says:

FIGHTER

I know but I don't see were it requires you be a fighter, only have fighter feats.

[Kylarra]

It's listed under Fighter ACFs, what more do you really want?

[Havelock]

warforged juggernaught?

[Demons_eye]

Something saying only fighters can take this not just people with fighter feat. Really it would not be the first time wizards did not think ahead as to what X + Y + Z would mean. I don't see a RAW reason this does not work.

I see it as Requires fighter feats as a class feature, you have fighter feats as a class feature so it works.

[Roc Ness]

Another bit of evidence supporting the theory that Fighter Feats do not qualify you for Fighter ACF is that just having Fighter Feats does not qualify you to take Fighter-only feats.

[Demons_eye]

Another bit of evidence supporting the theory that Fighter Feats do not qualify you for Fighter ACF is that just having Fighter Feats does not qualify you to take Fighter-only feats.

That just supports it more. Those feats require you to be fighter X, while the ACF just need you to give up fighter bonus feats not require you to be fighter X.

[Kylarra]

Something saying only fighters can take this not just people with fighter feat. Really it would not be the first time wizards did not think ahead as to what X + Y + Z would mean. I don't see a RAW reason this does not work.

I see it as Requires fighter feats as a class feature, you have fighter feats as a class feature so it works.

You aren't a fighter so you don't qualify for fighter ACFs. It's really that simple.

Your barbarian can't take Penetrating strike or Quick fingers despite having trap sense, because he's not a rogue.

Your Wizard can't take spell shield despite having a familiar.

etc

[Coidzor]

Obviously. It's not an unreasonable houserule though.

Now, on to the actual question, if you could do it, would dungeoncrasher stack with itself.

I'm of a no opinion initially, but I need to review Dungeoncrasher.

[Demons_eye]

You aren't a fighter so you don't qualify for fighter ACFs. It's really that simple.

Good RAI but I still don't see a RAW anywhere. The ACF don't require Fighter X so I don't see why not.

Your barbarian can't take Penetrating strike or Quick fingers despite having trap sense, because he's not a rogue.

Other then being pointless for the barbarian I dont see why not. He meets the requirements.

Your Wizard can't take spell shield despite having a familiar.

etc

I can not find this AFC so I can no comment on it.

[Kylarra]

Obviously. It's not an unreasonable houserule though.

Now, on to the actual question, if you could do it, would dungeoncrasher stack with itself.

I'm of a no opinion initially, but I need to review Dungeoncrasher.

The competence bonus to AC/saves would not stack for sure, the untyped bonus to strength to break things probably would, being untyped, the damage I'm tending towards not stacking personally.

Good RAI but I still don't see a RAW anywhere. The ACF don't require Fighter X so I don't see why not.

It's part of the standard class package, per the ACF presentation in the PHB2. Rogues are not offered the dungeoncrasher ACF, ergo they can't take it.

Other then being pointless for the barbarian I dont see why not. He meets the requirements.

Barbarians are not offered the ACFs, therefore they cannot take it.

I can not find this AFC so I can no comment on it.

It's in dungeonscape, same as every other ACF I mentioned, for simplicity.

[Mongoose87]

warforged juggernaught?

You still need to find a way to become large, so that you can qualify for Knockback and get that Three Mountains style in there.

[Greenish]

Alternative class features replace the class features found in the original class description.

Fighter feats aren't found in rogue's original class description, I believe.

[Demons_eye]

Fighter feats aren't found in rogue's original class description, I believe.

One could argue that that they are the original class feature found in the class. You have normal fighter feats not thug feats. You have rage not whirling frenzy. This quote is what I was looking for a RAW defense so I'll shut up now.

[Critical]

I have a Half-Minotaur Human Fighter in one game with Knockback and Three Mountains Style, planning to dip Warblade and go into Bloodstorm Blade, fun.