Why Are Necromancers Always Evil?

[Zexion]

A while ago, I noticed a strange stereotype: Necromancers are always evil. This doesn't make sense to me. For example, using an army of dead soldiers to defend a country would seem more Neutral, even Good. Or using skeletons to build houses or bridges or something...

Any thoughts?

[EagleWiz]

Using negative energy (creating undead) is an evil act.

[Denkal]

There's the use of negative energy, which is generally frowned upon by good-aligned beings, and it could be interpreted as disrespectful to the being whose corpse you animate.

[Snake-Aes]

A while ago, I noticed a strange stereotype: Necromancers are always evil. This doesn't make sense to me. For example, using an army of dead soldiers to defend a country would seem more Neutral, even Good. Or using skeletons to build houses or bridges or something...

Any thoughts?

My group's favorite setting doesn't link "negative energy" with "evil". It's an energy just like positive and the elements. And, as you suggested, undead are integrated into industry. They are cheaper than golems and perform simpler tasks, like pulling weights and tilling soil. Rich people can buy lichdom, and the "corpse industry" is as big as it gets for stuff that anything above "Peasant" can afford at work.

[Zexion]

There's the use of negative energy, which is generally frowned upon by good-aligned beings, and it could be interpreted as disrespectful to the being whose corpse you animate.

But why is is frowned apon? I mean, the use is typically for Evil purposes, but, for example, so is combat training. Necromancy is just a tool, what you use the tool for should be what determines it's alignment.

EDIT: @Snake-Aes: That sounds completely awesome.

[Hyooz]

There's just something about using Uncle Louie's corpse that's just incredibly distasteful to most people.

But really, you might as well ask why murder is evil. Or cannibalism.

[Yorrin]

It's the classic problem of the ends not justifying the means.

In this case- if you take an army of undead to defend a LG Paladinic stronghold or save innocent lives or what have you, you still used negative energy to create the undead in the first place, and thus it is an act of evil. The prime argument used here is that if you had enough power to do good via an act of evil such as necromancy, you could have re-focused your power to some non-evil means to the same end.

[The Glyphstone]

Because WotC can't make up their mind about morality as it relates to spells and particularly negative energy.

[NowhereMan583]

A while ago, I noticed a strange stereotype: Necromancers are always evil. This doesn't make sense to me. For example, using an army of dead soldiers to defend a country would seem more Neutral, even Good. Or using skeletons to build houses or bridges or something...

Any thoughts?

I think it stems from the common cultural taboo re: desecration of the dead.

I agree with you though, it doesn't make much sense when you think about it.

Using undead as labor seems like it would actually be more acceptable than having living humans do the work, because mindless bodies don't really care whether they have to spend the day building houses. However, then you have to ask:

• Does creating undead disturb the souls of the dead in question? If so, it's a serious violation of rights and may be tantamount to slavery. If not, then it's probably okay.
• Does using undead for labor take jobs from the living? If so, it's probably not going to make you a popular person.

Wow. This post got really unfocused as I wrote it.

[Noedig]

See I hold with Snake-Aes on this one. The plane of negative energy is just a cosmic balance against the plane of positive energy. Negative energy is not "evil", but it can be used to do "evil" things like animating. For that matter, an over abundance of positive energy can be used to do some pretty bad things to people, like make them explode for having to many hitpoints. I personally have less of a problem with skeletons than exploding people.

[Zexion]

There's just something about using Uncle Louie's corpse that's just incredibly distasteful to most people.

But really, you might as well ask why murder is evil. Or cannibalism.

Fair enough.
But no, what I'm asking is why necromancy is bundled up with murder in people's minds.

It's the classic problem of the ends not justifying the means.

In this case- if you take an army of undead to defend a LG Paladinic stronghold or save innocent lives or what have you, you still used negative energy to create the undead in the first place, and thus it is an act of evil. The prime argument used here is that if you had enough power to do good via an act of evil such as necromancy, you could have re-focused your power to some non-evil means to the same end.

And what makes the negative energy evil? It isn't specified as evil in the D&D books. It's just negative energy. You might as well call subtraction evil and addition holy.

I think it stems from the common cultural taboo re: desecration of the dead.

I agree with you though, it doesn't make much sense when you think about it.

Using undead as labor seems like it would actually be more acceptable than having living humans do the work, because mindless bodies don't really care whether they have to spend the day building houses. However, then you have to ask:

• Does creating undead disturb the souls of the dead in question? If so, it's a serious violation of rights and may be tantamount to slavery. If not, then it's probably okay.
• Does using undead for labor take jobs from the living? If so, it's probably not going to make you a popular person.

Wow. This post got really unfocused as I wrote it.

I do not believe so. Roy didn't even know until his father told him.

Well... it probably does, but that's not necessarily evil.

[Noedig]

@NowhereMan: I think for corporeal mindless undead like skeletons and zombies, its more of a matter of the corpse being suffused with pure negative energy rather than the remnants of a soul. For intelligent undead and most incorporeal undead, there is more of a gray area, especially for incorporeal which I think are actually vengeful souls.

[The Rose Dragon]

I do not believe so. Roy didn't even know until his father told him.

Well... it probably does, but that's not necessarily evil.

Roy was a bone golem. Golems are powered by elementals.

Then again, it should probably make them more evil than the undead, who do no such thing.

[awa]

in second edition you could use animate dead and not be evil if you asked the person you were casting it on before you cast it.

One thing to consider is all we know what non immediate side effects a spell like this would have. Its possible that the designers felt that their was some inherent aspect of creating undead that is evil.

So any "good" done by the act would be weighed against whatever the spell does.

[Denkal]

But why is is frowned apon? I mean, the use is typically for Evil purposes, but, for example, so is combat training. Necromancy is just a tool, what you use the tool for should be what determines it's alignment.

True, there isn't much reason for Negative Energy use to be evil of itself. You might homebrew Necromancy spells that can summon the soul of a body for aid, so that good necromancers can call the aid of fallen heroes, ala Ghost Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard.

Then, once their aid isn't needed, they return to their afterlife, removing the taboo of desecrating their remains.

[Zexion]

Roy was a bone golem. Golems are powered by elementals.

Then again, it should probably make them more evil than the undead, who do no such thing.

Yes, but a bone golem is still an undead.

Mmm... there's some gray area there, I admit.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yes, but a bone golem is still an undead.

No, it's not. It's a construct. Constructs are a totally different type of creature than undead.

[awa]

also order of the stick is one person interpretation (regardless of how good that interpretation is) just because it worked like that in the comic dosent mean it would work that way in all worlds.

[Zexion]

No, it's not. It's a construct. Constructs are a totally different type of creature than undead.

...
Oh. Oops. See, this is why I should check these things with the forum before I go making assumptions.

[Eurus]

One of the ways that I like to fluff it is to say that channeling negative energy for any reason, but particularly for undead, actually decreases the overall amount of positive energy in the world (since positive and negative energy have a matter/antimatter relationship). By pulling more of it from the Negative Energy Plane into the Material, you're essentially increasing entropy.

Granted, this does make positive energy an intrinsically Good thing, but since even a holy sword can be used for evil deeds I'd say that's only a minor issue.

[Reluctance]

Are you asking for the underlying reasons for the trope that necromancy is evil, or are you asking people to explain it using D&D physics? The former ultimately stems from the fact that decomposing bodies are often vectors for disease, add cultural/evolutionary conditioning to taste. The latter assumes that D&D metaphysics were designed with any purpose beyond what sounds cool at the moment.

[Zexion]

One of the ways that I like to fluff it is to say that channeling negative energy for any reason, but particularly for undead, actually decreases the overall amount of positive energy in the world (since positive and negative energy have a matter/antimatter relationship). By pulling more of it from the Negative Energy Plane into the Material, you're essentially increasing entropy.

Granted, this does make positive energy an intrinsically Good thing, but since even a holy sword can be used for evil deeds I'd say that's only a minor issue.

But if it's a matter/antimatter relationship, wouldn't that mean that it eliminates a similar amount of positive energy, and that using positive energy would also accelerate entropy?

[Yorrin]

And what makes the negative energy evil? It isn't specified as evil in the D&D books. It's just negative energy. You might as well call subtraction evil and addition holy.

To quote a guy over on the ENWorld boards: in core DnD issues of good/evil are simply defined and accepted. Every spell that deals with the creation of undead or negative energy at all (to my knowledge) has an [Evil] tag on it. The same way devils and demons have the evil subtype. Does this pass over tons of subtleties? Yes. But the bottom line is- DnD morality is judged by someone's standards, and negative energy and undead both fall on the evil side of those standards.

[Nero24200]

Fair enough.
And what makes the negative energy evil? It isn't specified as evil in the D&D books. It's just negative energy.

My interpretation wasn't that negative energy in itself is evil (after all, inflict spells aren't) but rather this particular application of it is. To sustain an animated created you need to create a small conduit to the negative energy plane - in other words an unnatural means of siphoning additional negative energy into this world. That would explain why druids, for instance, hate undead, as a bunch of additional negative energy without positive to balance it out upsets natural order.

But really, it could just be that undead are almost always portrayed as being evil in fantasy. And well...would you be happy if you buried a loved one to then find their corpse up and ransaking your village? I wouldn't.

True, there isn't much reason for Negative Energy use to be evil of itself. You might homebrew Necromancy spells that can summon the soul of a body for aid, so that good necromancers can call the aid of fallen heroes, ala Ghost Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard.

There is a big difference there. If someone remains as a ghost it's by choice. If your local necromancer casts Animate Dead on your corpse, it isn't a choice. Not to mention that typically animated creatures (I.E skeletons and zombies) aren't intellegent, so they wouldn't have your personality. They would be fully under the command of the caster.

So, as in my previous example, if a necromancer decided to raise your corpse and kill your loved ones with it, there isn't anything you could do to stop your body going through with it.

in second edition you could use animate dead and not be evil if you asked the person you were casting it on before you cast it.

This I could get behind. That's the idea behind the Deathless in Eberron - That they are ancestors that remain to protect their kin.

[arrowhen]

Like all things alignment, it makes more sense the less you think about it. Dead things are icky and icky = evil.

[Criptfeind]

And what makes the negative energy evil? It isn't specified as evil in the D&D books. It's just negative energy. You might as well call subtraction evil and addition holy.

You hit the nail on the head, negative energy is evil because necromancy uses it and necromancy is evil because it uses negative energy. It all started because some guy in WOTC decided that negative energy is evil in core settings, it is as arbitrary as positive energy being good, some parts of the paladin code, and the famous druid scimitar.

But really, you might as well ask why murder is evil. Or cannibalism.

Ah but there are reasons that we call even these things evil. Murder is evil in most societies because it promotes discord and stops the society from working. Cannibalism is evil in some societies because of ultimately the health risks.

As for necromancy it does not really disrupt society, so why is it evil?

[Sir_Elderberry]

I've always heard it fluffed as negative energy being, quite literally, un-life. When you use it, plants grow a little worse, diseases spread a little easier (diseases not being microbial in D&D), people don't live quite as long. It's basically magic pollution. The alternate explanation is that it somehow obstructs the soul's passage into the afterlife (definitely true for sentient undead).

That said, I think a setting that removed such alignment restrictions would be just fine and, honestly, not all that surprising to most players.

[Zexion]

But really, it could just be that undead are almost always portrayed as being evil in fantasy. And well...would you be happy if you buried a loved one to then find their corpse up and ransaking your village? I wouldn't.

Ransacking your village, though. Would you be happy if you looked down from your immortal resting place and saw that your body was still helping your town?

There is a big difference there. If someone remains as a ghost it's by choice. If your local necromancer casts Animate Dead on your corpse, it isn't a choice. Not to mention that typically animated creatures (I.E skeletons and zombies) aren't intellegent, so they wouldn't have your personality. They would be fully under the command of the caster.

Which is a good thing, because then the dead spirit gets his immortal rest.

So, as in my previous example, if a necromancer decided to raise your corpse and kill your loved ones with it, there isn't anything you could do to stop your body going through with it.

Yes...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It is funny...in D&D, you have a veritable revolving door, so really, death and life don't matter all that much. It's a desensitization of death, and as such, a desensitization to life.

Personally, I would hold that necromancy should be considered evil, because it disrupts the natural order of life and death, but then again...so should the revolving door. Which makes things interesting.

[The Rose Dragon]

In the interests of being system-neutral, necromancy is fairly morally neutral in Exalted. Sure, its original source is the dead creators of the world who want to kill everything so they can finally rest in peace, and to learn it you must teach someone the fear of death, but ultimately, the spells and its users are fairly varied in their outlook.