UMD fix?

[WarKitty]

So I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with UMD. DM'ing a mid-level campaign, I dropped a very powerful (albeit limited) plot artifact in the player's laps. One that normally requires a very specific long ritual to activate.

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check." Thankfully the situation was averted this time, but I have a feeling it's going to become a problem later.

So my basic deal: how do you make a properly scaling UMD system? I really don't like the flat DC as it is now. My level 10 characters can pretty much UMD anything they want to including high-level artifacts, while characters in our lower-level campaign can't even UMD a simple 1st level wand without serious risk.

[Tyndmyr]

You can't.

Skills are too pumpable. See also, truenamer.

[Prodan]

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check." Thankfully the situation was averted this time, but I have a feeling it's going to become a problem later.

You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

[WarKitty]

You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

Good point. Still, they can get their check bonuses high enough to be able to keep trying without penalty, and the worst that can happen is a natural 1 meaning they can't try again for a day.

[aivanther]

As a player who has never DMed: You're the frigging DM. You inform them that UMD does not mean you can pick up Random-Artifact-of-Mystery roll a dice and use it like a pro. Wands and scrolls make sense, they're common enough that familiarity justifies a roll of simple ability. But a specific item with specific requirments is no to UMD.

[Ranos]

You can't straight out stop them from activating it. But there are a few ways you can make stuff more difficult.

-Sentient artifact. They activate it, but he doesn't necessarily like them.
-Artifact restricted to a certain race. Sure, they can emulate that race at the beginning, but the moment they stop emulating while still wearing it (race emulation only lasts an hour, and they have to sleep eventually, right ?), the protection measures activate.
-Cursed artifact. They activate it ? Good for them


DO NOT do this every goddamn time though. Seriously.

[Prodan]

-Artifact restricted to a certain race. Sure, they can emulate that race at the beginning, but the moment they stop emulating while still wearing it (race emulation only lasts an hour, and they have to sleep eventually, right ?), the protection measures activate.

Michael Jackson pretended to be a human for years though.

[Ravens_cry]

Michael Jackson pretended to be a human for years though.

Yeah, but I think he got a string of ones on his disguise checks in the later years. Yoiks!

[Lord Vukodlak]

Say you have a staff of storms, one of the spells contained with in is control weather. It takes 10 minutes to cast control weather from the staff. PERIOD end of story. No amount of UMDing can speed up that activation.

UMD lets you mimic certain requirements to use an item, ability scores, class feature, race, alignment. You can also activate an item blindly, which I assume is what the party is doing.

Use Magic Device takes no action on its own its part of whatever action is required to use the item. If the ritual takes eight hours to activate the item. It takes the same amount of time to activate it blindly.

Lastly its an artifact you can simply say without the ritual the item has no power to do anything.

UMD can't do everything, Relics require either a feat or the expenditure of a sixth level divine spell slot to activate their full power.
UMD is useless in this case, the skill can't mimic feat requirements, and it can't actually give you a spell slot to expend, The same can be applied to an item activated by ritual.

I'd also say that a full scale ritual is to big and to complicated for UMD to fake with activate blindly which makes more sense for items that are activated quickly.

[Ranos]

UMD can't do everything, Relics require either a feat or the expenditure of a sixth level divine spell slot to activate their full power.
UMD is useless in this case, the skill can't mimic feat requirements, and it can't actually give you a spell slot to expend, The same can be applied to an item activated by ritual.

Depending on his PCs' resourcefulness, this is more of a speedbump than anything, really. Nothing stopping them from getting that feat, either from level up or through a myriad of other ways.

I agree with the rest of your post, though I don't really think the PCs were attempting to bypass the activation times at all. Just them activating the artifact at all was the problem.

[faceroll]

Let them UMD it to have it use it's mundane powers, like the Staff of Everfrost still lets you get off a polar ray 1/day, but no fimbulwinters. Or the One Ring will turn you invisible, but it's not like you're going to be able to bend the Ring to our will and rise as Sauron II.

[WarKitty]

Unfortunately it *is* something they are supposed to be able to use eventually. And it's a single power, activation binds it to a specific pair of characters until one of them dies. It's just...they're supposed to have to WORK to figure out what it does and how to use it, and go through the ensuing ritual. Not just roll a die until it works.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Depending on his PCs' resourcefulness, this is more of a speedbump than anything, really. Nothing stopping them from getting that feat, either from level up or through a myriad of other ways.

I agree with the rest of your post, though I don't really think the PCs were attempting to bypass the activation times at all. Just them activating the artifact at all was the problem.

I wasn't suggesting using the relic method to limit the artifact, I was simply pointing out there are things that no UMD check can duplicate and the artifact could have something along those lines.

Unfortunately it *is* something they are supposed to be able to use eventually. And it's a single power, activation binds it to a specific pair of characters until one of them dies. It's just...they're supposed to have to WORK to figure out what it does and how to use it, and go through the ensuing ritual. Not just roll a die until it works.

You said its an artifact, DM flat you can't UMD it. Artifacts tend to be beyond mortal magic so its perfectly fine to make it beyond mortal skill. If artifacts had to follow the normal rules they wouldn't be artifacts. Or simply have the ritual not activate the item, but stop the magic killing you one week from activation.

[Ranos]

Well then, I guess you're out of luck. If it's any consolation, at those levels, divination makes information gathering a trivial task anyway.

Or you could go with the old cliche of "Gather all the parts of the artifact to activate it". That's pretty much the same, isn't it ?

You said its an artifact, DM flat you can't UMD it. Artifacts tend to be beyond mortal magic so its perfectly fine to make it beyond mortal skill. If artifacts had to follow the normal rules they wouldn't be artifacts. Or simply have the ritual not activate the item, but stop the magic killing you one week from activation.

Nah, they're still magic items. It's always better to work within the framework of your player's abilities rather than negate them through fiat.

[AsteriskAmp]

You could either make the artifact do them severe damage each time they try unseccesfully, or you could simply negate them the ability to roll for it's activation.

[elonin]

The pc does have to know what aspects they want to emulate.

[Another_Poet]

I don't think you are ruling UMD correctly.

a very powerful plot artifact ... that normally requires a very specific long ritual to activate.

The response: "I have the bard inspire competence on me and take 10 on my UMD check."

You can use UMD to activate it blindly but it will not speed up how long the activation takes. The UMD entry says: "Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action... You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check."

So if the ritual takes 2 hours normally, it takes 2 hours with UMD too.

Additionally, I think a fair house rule would be that if the ritual requires an expensive or unique material component, you can't UMD it without that component.

My level 10 characters can pretty much UMD anything they want to including high-level artifacts

Yep. Good for them, for buying ranks. 3.5 is all about magic items and this allows the non-wizards to get in on the action (your special artefact notwithstanding).

while characters in our lower-level campaign can't even UMD a simple 1st level wand without serious risk.

This is why I think you are ruling it wrong. There is no serious risk.

Let's assume a 3rd level character, since that is about the earliest that they can afford enough wands to circulate them to the non-wizards. Max ranks (6) plus a Cha of 14 (+2) is a modifier of +8, average roll of 18.

The DC on a wand is is 20 and you have to miss by 10 or more to have a mishap. They only suffer a mishap on a natural 1 or 2, 10% of the time.

When they do have the mishap, it either "affects the wrong target" (meaning it is only as "serious" of a risk as you the GM choose to make it) or it deals 2d6 damage to them. Any 3rd level character can soak up 7 damage, or even the maximum of 12 damage and survive.

Only if they are using a scroll is there a chance of other types of mishaps.

I think if you refresh yourself on the RAW for UMD and enforce them more closely you will have less problems. The artefact won't be any easier to activate, it'll just be possible for more character classes; and in low level games there won't be serious risk.

If you really want to rewrite it to make it scale more, make the DC for artefacts 1d20+10+CL. You roll the DC each time and they never know quite how hard it will be, plus the average DC is higher than the listed 25.

ap

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well then, I guess you're out of luck. If it's any consolation, at those levels, divination makes information gathering a trivial task anyway.

Or you could go with the old cliche of "Gather all the parts of the artifact to activate it". That's pretty much the same, isn't it ?

Nah, they're still magic items. It's always better to work within the framework of your player's abilities rather than negate them through fiat.

No its not always better, its usually better but nothing is ever always An antimagic field negates the abilities of spellcasters. So why can't an artifact be to powerful to be activated blindly?
Their artifacts they get to be special, if all else fails make it intelligent an it can simply refuse to be activated if the ritual isn't performed.

And if your an absolute stickler, go back to the ritual doesn't activate the item, it stops its magic from killing you. So sure they can activate it blindly but one of them will be killed by a horrible curse within a week.

You also severely over estimate the power of divination. That information is always cryptic and incomplete and the DM is free to drag out the clues for 20 levels if he wishes. Artifacts shouldn't be effected by divinations to begin with anyway. As the DM should control when they appear not the players.

[Kurald Galain]

Artifacts are, in a way, plot devices. Thus, it is entirely appropriate to rule that this particular artifact has a latent ability that prevents it from being UMD'ed.

I've used artifacts in the past that have such a strong aura that using Detect Magic on them causes acute headaches. It's the same idea: an artifact is so powerful that it may distort the common effects of regular low-level spells and abilities.

[PapaNachos]

I would agree with the idea that it can't simply be UMDed. Though I would give them some sort of hint to help them pick up the trail.

[AslanCross]

As a player who has never DMed: You're the frigging DM. You inform them that UMD does not mean you can pick up Random-Artifact-of-Mystery roll a dice and use it like a pro. Wands and scrolls make sense, they're common enough that familiarity justifies a roll of simple ability. But a specific item with specific requirments is no to UMD.

This. UMDing is the metaphysical equivalent of kicking an uncooperative machine until it works. I don't think an artifact should respond to it.

[Killer Angel]

You can't take 10 on UMD checks unless you are an Artificer, Warlock, Rogue with Skill Mastery (debatable), or Exemplar.

I don't think it's debatable. You can't take 10 on UMD with Rogue's Skill Mastery.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This. UMDing is the metaphysical equivalent of kicking an uncooperative machine until it works. I don't think an artifact should respond to it.

Unless they kick back.

[AslanCross]

Unless they kick back.

That works pretty well too. I guess we could say it CAN respond, just not in a necessarily favorable way.

[Prime32]

One fix I've seen for UMD split up the various functions among multiple skills. It's a Knowledge (religion) check to emulate an alignment, a Spellcraft check to emulate knowledge of a spell, etc.

[lesser_minion]

I think you're basically free to ban UMD checks against artifacts. They are plot devices, after all.

The simplest fix to UMD would be to turn it back into a bard/rogue class feature. Splitting it up across different skills would also work, and would be a nice fix in its own right.

I don't think it's debatable. You can't take 10 on UMD with Rogue's Skill Mastery.

This. Skill mastery lets you take 10 when prevented by stress or distractions. It doesn't help you when the skill explicitly forbids taking 10.

[Snake-Aes]

I'm not sure i understand what the problem is with UMDing the artifact.
The activation time won't change.
Any material components, spell components or the like are still necessary. UMD lets you pretend to BE something, but doesn't let you use something. If Artifact of Doom demands you to cast Flesh to Stone on it, pretending to be a wizard won't activate the artifact.

[Tyndmyr]

No, but UMDing a staff of flesh to stone will do the job.

Follow the rules. If you want them to work for it, find a way that, within the rules, they'll have to work to sort it out. Don't play the "guess what the DM wants you to do" game. That game always sucks.

[Snake-Aes]

No, but UMDing a staff of flesh to stone will do the job.

Indeed, but if they have the spell, they aren't "cheating" the spell slot. It's a resource expense just like having an actual caster there to cast. Thus why I'm not sure of what is the problem here.

Follow the rules. If you want them to work for it, find a way that, within the rules, they'll have to work to sort it out. Don't play the "guess what the DM wants you to do" game. That game always sucks.

[ericgrau]

Artifacts are normally exempt from normal everything. UMD can't do that; at best it could let you activate an object blindly without knowing the command word, not without knowing some complex ritual. UMD is only pumpable through custom items which must be approved by the DM first. And ya, as said you can't take a 10. First step before fixing anything is to see what it already does.