Rogue challenge AD&D 2.0

[Ruinix]

that it's , 70kxp (edit, is only 70k xp so should be rogue 8) for expend and all kits allowed as its the races and everything, this will be a campaing in ravenloft, so the char will we warped from anywhere thus is allowed all kits all races all all XD

now i always play rogue, i think as a rogue and my party always expect i save their asses from traps and a like. also im confort with SA damage, but i know there isn't SA in 2.0 wich i think it sux.

anyway plz playgrounders i ask for u wisdom and saavy, build me a pure dps rogue TWF wich can also found and disable traps.

[Matthew]

I am not one-hundred percent sure what you are asking for here, but your best bet is to go with either a "level 8 elf thief" or maybe a level 6/6 elf fighter/thief (if you were going with 80,000 EP, then it would be level 6/7). Either way, you want to put your highest score in dexterity and assign as many thief ability points to find/remove traps as you have available. No real point in using any kits, unless you are desperate for some extra non-weapon proficiencies, but the fighter levels will give you more options for weapon proficiencies, fighting styles, and specialisation.

[LibraryOgre]

that it's , 70kxp (edit, is only 70k xp so should be rogue 8) for expend and all kits allowed as its the races and everything, this will be a campaing in ravenloft, so the char will we warped from anywhere thus is allowed all kits all races all all XD

now i always play rogue, i think as a rogue and my party always expect i save their asses from traps and a like. also im confort with SA damage, but i know there isn't SA in 2.0 wich i think it sux.

anyway plz playgrounders i ask for u wisdom and saavy, build me a pure dps rogue TWF wich can also found and disable traps.

2nd edition? Pure rogue (I assume you mean Thief, single-classed)? With no limits?

I'll have to do research. However, my first inclination would be to lean towards a half-orc... while it doesn't have the strength of a half-ogre, it likewise doesn't suffer from the stat penalties to thief skills. The +1 to strength can be awesome, especially if you can finagle it as your highest stat.

You might also look into a pure elf, as their bonuses to stealth skills will let you get in good backstabs, you can juice up their FRT/OL, and get a bonus to hit with longswords and short swords (improving your chance of backstabbing). You'll probably want to pick ONE weapon and heavily specialize in Two-weapon style... as a Thief, you're only going to have 4 slots, total, so you can't go hog-wild.

[Ruinix]

pure fighter 6 / pure thief 7 ?

TWF for what? cause in 3.X u can gain SA from off hand hit wich increase the damage output, so my question is, wtf TWF in 2nd ed ?!

[hamlet]

pure fighter 6 / pure thief 7 ?

TWF for what? cause in 3.X u can gain SA from off hand hit wich increase the damage output, so my question is, wtf TWF in 2nd ed ?!

You will seriously need to speak English and not this strange version of text speak that you are currently putting here.

If you're asking (I'm just not sure here) about fighting with weapons in each hand simultaneously, then it is possible. The easiest way is to be a Ranger. They are automatically able to wield two weapons at once (dual-wield) without any penalty, though there are limitations.

If you don't want a ranger, then you'll want to open up the Complete Fighter's Handbook and look up fighting styles. There is one in there for dual-wielding that will, in time, permit this fighting style without too much of a penalty.

And there's no such thing as "sneak attack" in 2nd edition. It's called backstab and you'll have to read up on it as it does not function like sneak attack in 3.x.

[Thane of Fife]

If you're asking (I'm just not sure here) about fighting with weapons in each hand simultaneously, then it is possible. The easiest way is to be a Ranger. They are automatically able to wield two weapons at once (dual-wield) without any penalty, though there are limitations.

If you don't want a ranger, then you'll want to open up the Complete Fighter's Handbook and look up fighting styles. There is one in there for dual-wielding that will, in time, permit this fighting style without too much of a penalty.

Rogues can actually make for pretty good two-weapon fighters, because they have the best chance of a high enough dexterity to get that precious Reaction Adjustment bonus.

I think that there's also a dwarf fighter/thief kit that reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons (Ghetto Fighter, maybe?).

[Matthew]

Pure fighter 6 / Pure thief 7?

Yes, multiclassing in AD&D works differently than in D20/3e. In AD&D it is like what you may know as a "gestalt" character.

You will seriously need to speak English and not this strange version of text speak that you are currently putting here.

From what I gather he wants to add extra damage dice to each attack made in the style of D20/3e. Yeah, basically, AD&D does not work like that. I can try and translate:

What is the purpose of fighting with two weapons in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, and how should I best approach it? In D20/3e the rogue class gets sneak attack damage for every attack made under certain conditions. How can I get something similar in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, second edition?

Given that he has the full array of options available to him, as he seems to indicate above, then the best bet is to go via Skills & Powers, since that will give him access to more character points that can be spent on fighting with two weapons. Let us assume for the moment that his attribute array is something like the following:

Strength 12, Dexterity 17, Constitution 10, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 9, Charisma 13

A standard human thief "build" might be:

Attack Bonus (5 CP) - Long Sword
Thief Abilities (80 CP)
Non-Weapon Proficiencies (10 CP)
Weapon Proficiencies (11 CP)
Long sword (3)
Specialised Fighting with Two Weapons (4)
Can use Two Weapons of Same Size (2)

Remainder: 2 CP
Earned: 24 CP
Total: 26

That will get you 2 attacks with no penalties at 1d8 each. You cannot add any further damage, but if you catch an enemy by surprise you can make one attack with a x3 damage multiplier.

[Ruinix]

thx matthew for the help and translate :p i speak 2 languages, bad spanish (my home language) and bad english :p

anyway. yes, i want some extra damage with a rogue in AD&D 2nd edition.

i forgot to tell char build will be with 32 point buy system.

explain me a bit better plz that of "surprise" attack. how it works? work on every round or just the first ? and what about the backstab. how its work that on 2nd ed ??


thx for the answers

[Project_Mayhem]

I can try and translate

I couldn't help but think of the scene in Airplane where the old lady offers to translate jive.

S**t - Golly!

/derail

[hamlet]

thx matthew for the help and translate :p i speak 2 languages, bad spanish (my home language) and bad english :p

anyway. yes, i want some extra damage with a rogue in AD&D 2nd edition.

i forgot to tell char build will be with 32 point buy system.

explain me a bit better plz that of "surprise" attack. how it works? work on every round or just the first ? and what about the backstab. how its work that on 2nd ed ??


thx for the answers

There is no "surprise attack" really. There is only backstab. It is an ability of a thief to cause increased damage on an attack against an opponent who is unaware of his presence. You must first be hidden or otherwise go undetected by your target and then you must successfully attack. Whether you succeed or fail, you can no longer backstab during that encounter as the target is aware of your presence and will react accordingly.

There might be some other stupidity available in Players Options books, but I hate them and will not go browsing through them to find another exploit.

Do you have a copy of the rules? If you do not, how do you plan on playing? Every question you have asked is readily answered by the Players Handbook.

[Matthew]

thx Matthew for the help and translate :p i speak 2 languages, bad spanish (my home language) and bad english :p

anyway. yes, I want some extra damage with a rogue in AD&D 2nd edition.

i forgot to tell char build will be with 32 point buy system.

explain me a bit better plz that of "surprise" attack. how it works? work on every round or just the first ? and what about the backstab. how its work that on 2nd ed ??

thx for the answers

No worries. Basically, you have three "good" options, I would say:

Level 8 Human Thief
Level 8 Elf Thief
Level 6/7 Elf Fighter/Thief

The advantages of being an elf are:

1) Access to "Blade Singing Fighting Style"
2) +1 to hit with swords and bows
3) Increased Probability of Surprise
4) Better Thief skills
5) Access to Multiclass options

The disadvantages are:

1) You have to be an elf.
2) Level Limits
3) Difficult to be raised from the dead

In all probability level limits will have no effect in the game you are playing, as advancement is unlikely to be rapid enough (I could be wrong, though), but the advantage of multiclassing as a fighter/thief is that you trade one level of thief for a significantly better fighting ability.

Assuming that you are using a D20/3e style point buy system and making a fighter/thief, you can probably get away with:

Strength 16 (10 points)
Dexterity 16 (10 points)
Constitution 12 (4 points)
Intelligence 12 (4 points)
Wisdom 10 (2 points)
Charisma 10 (2 points)

After racial modifiers that will work out at:

Race: Elf

Class: Fighter/Thief

Level: 6/7 (maximum levels 12/12)

Experience Points: 40,000/40,000 (44,000/44,000)

Strength 16 [+1 damage, +10% fighter experience points]
Dexterity 17 [+2 to hit with ranged attacks, −3 AC, +10% thief experience points]
Constitution 11
Intelligence 12 [3 bonus proficiencies]
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10

Hit Points: (6d10/2) + (7d6/2) [versus 8d6 for level 8 thief]
THAC0: 15 (basically BAB +5) [versus THAC0 17/BAB +3 for level 8 thief]
Saving Throws: 11/12/11/13/13 [versus 12/12/11/15/13 for level 8 thief]
Weapon Proficiencies: 6 [versus 4 with level 8 thief]
Nonweapon Proficiencies: 5 (+3 from intelligence)

Using the Complete Fighter's Handbook, Complete Book of Elves, and the Skills & Powers proficiency rules you should be able to pick up the following:

Long Sword (1)
Long Bow (1)
Fighting Style Specialisation: Two Weapons (1)
Weapon Specialisation: Long Sword (1)
Fighting Style Specialisation: Blade Singing (2)

Your game master may not be inclined to allow the latter, in which case you should pick up a small weapon proficiency of some sort. Fighters can use their non-weapon proficiency bonuses from intelligence to buy extra-weapon proficiencies, in which case you can improve blade-singing to (3), which increases the defensive and attacking bonuses from +1 to +2.

The result of all this is that you have the following attack abilities:

Primary Melee Attack: Long Sword: #A 3/2; BtH +2; BtD +3
Secondary Melee Attack: Long Sword: #A 1; BtH +2; BtD +3
Primary Missile Attack: Long Bow: #A 2; BtH +2; BtD n/a

So you have two long sword attacks on odd rounds and three on even rounds. In D20/3e terms the attack bonuses would be AB +7, D 1d8+3. In AD&D terms that is pretty good, as hit point totals are lower. Also, each round you can choose one of the following from Blade-Singing:

1) +1 to hit
2) Improve AC by 1
3) Free Parry manoeuvre

Starting Thief Abilities are as follows:

Pick Pockets: 25%
Open Locks: 15%
Find/Remove Traps: 5%
Move Silently: 20%
Hide in Shadows: 20%
Detect Noise: 20%
Climb Walls: 60%
Read Languages: 0%

You have 240% to add as you like, but no ability can have more than 120% added to it (no big deal, since there is little need for more than 100% ability). Obviously, this means you can spend 95% to have a 100% chance of finding and removing traps.

Surprise and Back Stab

Before any encounter surprise is checked. Normally, the probability is 30% that you will surprise the enemy and 30% that the enemy will surprise you. As an elf, as long as you wear non-metal armour and are 90' away from any non-elves or non-halflings or those wearing metal armour, you increase the chance of surprising the enemy to 70%. If you succeed at a move silently roll you further increase the chance to 90% (again you must be ahead of the party or in the company of similar stealthy types). Successfully surprising the enemy gives you a free round of action, and probably also a "back stab" attempt. This takes the form of a single attack with +4 to hit and x3 damage dice at your level (3d8+3). Probably, this is potentially wasteful at you level, unless the game master also allows you to make your second attack after the back stab.

Another way of getting surprise is an ambush. In that situation you are aware of the enemy and lying in wait for him. Just being hidden should be enough, but hide in shadows may be necessary if there is no cover. You get an automatic free round of action and then roll for surprise (obviously you cannot be surprised if you know the enemy is there).

I couldn't help but think of the scene in Airplane where the old lady offers to translate jive.

S**t - Golly!

/derail

[Ruinix]

thx for all clarifications.

i am awere of multiclass issue and level cap from races, that's why I thought the best option would be human but i didn't know this elf bonus.

anyway, what about kits? i have avaible all kit from all books, from greyhawk to oriental adventure and forgotten of course, dragonlance, planescape, al-qadim, maztica, spelljammer, etc etc etc, the dm offered add books on request, so ALL books are avaible and that is why i asking for any kit any way of increase the damage toward the clasic "fist full o' D6" way.

and is 70k xp no more :(

[Thane of Fife]

Using the Complete Fighter's Handbook, Complete Book of Elves, and the Skills & Powers proficiency rules you should be able to pick up the following:

Long Sword (1)
Long Bow (1)
Fighting Style Specialisation: Two Weapons (1)
Weapon Specialisation: Long Sword (1)
Fighting Style Specialisation: Blade Singing (2)

Your game master may not be inclined to allow the latter, in which case you should pick up a small weapon proficiency of some sort. Fighters can use their non-weapon proficiency bonuses from intelligence to buy extra-weapon proficiencies, in which case you can improve blade-singing to (3), which increases the defensive and attacking bonuses from +1 to +2.

The result of all this is that you have the following attack abilities:

Primary Melee Attack: Long Sword: #A 3/2; BtH +2; BtD +3
Secondary Melee Attack: Long Sword: #A 1; BtH +2; BtD +3
Primary Missile Attack: Long Bow: #A 2; BtH +2; BtD n/a

So you have two long sword attacks on odd rounds and three on even rounds. In D20/3e terms the attack bonuses would be AB +7, D 1d8+3. In AD&D terms that is pretty good, as hit point totals are lower. Also, each round you can choose one of the following from Blade-Singing:

I think you're making some mistakes here.

1. I don't think that one can Bladesing with two weapons. It's not explicitly banned, but I think that it's heavily implied.

2. Fighter/Thieves aren't allowed to specialize in a weapon normally, and even with Skills and Powers, they have to spend an extra slot and wait until 2nd level.

3. It requires two slots spent on Two-weapon style to be able to use two same-size weapons (per Skills and Powers).

This puts you two weapon proficiency slots over the limit.

[true_shinken]

Well, in Baldur's Gate the Swashbuckler kit was very good at dealing damage.

[Caliphbubba]

1.)Play a half-elf from Dragonlance. +2 dex, no negative mods.

2.)play a Swashbuckler Kit. Fighter THAC0 when using a rapier. some minor negatives to theiving abilites.

3.)????

4.) Profit

[Ruinix]

thx for input and keep coming. go crazy ppl with all kits i want more options to see. swachbuckler is a good one for go 6 fighter swashbuckler kit / 7 thief.

a question here. ninja or assasin from oriental adventure isn't better for damage purpose?

[Caliphbubba]

thx for input and keep coming. go crazy ppl with all kits i want more options to see. swachbuckler is a good one for go 6 fighter swashbuckler kit / 7 thief.

a question here. ninja or assasin from oriental adventure isn't better for damage purpose?

The theif Swashbuckler kit is a TON better then the Fighter Swashbuckler kit. if it were me I'd go straight Thief with the swashbuckler kit.

You go up levels faster then a fighter, but end up with the same THAC0. Get a magical Rapier, a belt of giant strength, and some elven chain and whup some butt.

The only reason I'd think about going Figheter/Thief would be if your DM let you Specialize. And only then if he's using the Weapon Mastery rules. That is firmly in the realm of house rules, however.

[Ruinix]

The theif Swashbuckler kit is a TON better then the Fighter Swashbuckler kit. if it were me I'd go straight Thief with the swashbuckler kit.

You go up levels faster then a fighter, but end up with the same THAC0. Get a magical Rapier, a belt of giant strength, and some elven chain and whup some butt.

The only reason I'd think about going Figheter/Thief would be if your DM let you Specialize. And only then if he's using the Weapon Mastery rules. That is firmly in the realm of house rules, however.

thx. o though swashbucler was a fighter kit, but if there is a thief kit too would be better :D

and for oriental kits? what about ? anything interesting there ?

[Caliphbubba]

thx. o though swashbucler was a fighter kit, but if there is a thief kit too would be better :D

and for oriental kits? what about ? anything interesting there ?

There is a Fighter Kit called swashbuckler and there is a Thief Kit called swashbuckler. The Theif one is way better.

as for oriental kits? no idea.

[Matthew]

I think you're making some mistakes here.

Could be, I do not use those options currently, and it was late at night when I was reviewing them.

1. I don't think that one can Blade sing with two weapons. It's not explicitly banned, but I think that it's heavily implied.

I agree with you about the intent, but as I say, that is something that will have to be taken up with the individual game master. There is a Dragon magazine Sage Advice that indicates it was only intended for a single weapon, I believe.

2. Fighter/Thieves aren't allowed to specialize in a weapon normally, and even with Skills and Powers, they have to spend an extra slot and wait until 2nd level.

Yes, indeed. I forgot to count the extra slot. There is some leeway for that, though, with the extra weapon proficiencies from intelligence. Of course, that requires that proficiencies can be saved between levels, as is implied by Skills & Powers and may be the case in the PHB (initial slots must be spent or lost, but in order to get certain proficiencies 2, or sometimes 3, slots must be spent).

3. It requires two slots spent on Two-weapon style to be able to use two same-size weapons (per Skills and Powers).

Yes, via Skills & Powers, no via Complete Fighter's Handbook. It depends which of those rules are in play.

This puts you two weapon proficiency slots over the limit.

Not with those handy extra intelligence based weapon proficiencies, he has a total of 9 to play with. Technically, I suppose he could even go with weapon mastery as a better choice than Blade Singing, but that requires 4 slots (or 8 character points), so you would probably have to strain the character point rules to get that.

[kjones]

that is why i asking for any kit any way of increase the damage toward the clasic "fist full o' D6" way.

Yeah, 2nd edition doesn't really work that way. "Bonus dice" on damage are few and far between.

[Matthew]

Well, in Baldur's Gate the Swashbuckler kit was very good at dealing damage.

Not the same thing, I am afraid.

The Thief Swashbuckler kit is a TON better then the Fighter Swashbuckler kit. if it were me I'd go straight Thief with the swashbuckler kit.

You go up levels faster then a fighter, but end up with the same THAC0. Get a magical Rapier, a belt of giant strength, and some elven chain and whup some butt.

The Thief Swashbuckler is a good option, but you lose the elf bonus to hit with the long sword and access to weapon specialisation. It is a close run thing, though.

The only reason I'd think about going Fighter/Thief would be if your DM let you Specialize. And only then if he's using the Weapon Mastery rules. That is firmly in the realm of house rules, however.

Nah, Skills & Powers allows it. Not a lot of difference between house rules and optional rules in my opinion, but for the purposes of this exercise all optional rules are apparently available.

Thanks for all clarifications.

I am aware of multiclass issue and level cap from races, that's why I thought the best option would be human but I didn't know this elf bonus.

Anyway, what about kits? I have available all kit from all books, from Greyhawk to Oriental Adventures and Forgotten Realms of course, Dragonlance, Planescape, Al-Qadim, Maztica, Spelljammer, etc etc etc, the DM offered add books on request, so ALL books are available and that is why I am asking for any kit any way of increase the damage toward the classic "fist full o' D6" way.

None that leap to mind, but there may be some out there, I have not seen all the kits. However, as Kjones notes, it is not really something that occurs in the AD&D design paradigm. Some sort of magical weapon might add bonus damage dice, though.

...and is 70k xp no more.

Ah well, then level 6/6 fighter/thief or level 8 thief. I would go with the former, but the latter is not a bad choice.

[Ruinix]

Yeah, 2nd edition doesn't really work that way. "Bonus dice" on damage are few and far between.

i know, that is why i was looking for help and advice to get something like that or at least something close to that.

Could be, I do not use these options and it was late at night when I was looking at them.


I agree with you about the intent, but as I say, that something that will have to be taken up with the individual game master. There is a Dragon magazine Sage Advice that says something along those lines, I believe.


Yes, indeed. I forgot to count the extra slot. There is some leeway for that, though, with the extra weapon proficiencies from intelligence. Of course, that requires that proficiencies can be saved between levels, as is implied by Skills & Powers and may be the case in the PHB (initial slots must be spent or lost, but in order to get certain proficiencies 2, or sometimes 3, slots must be spent).


Yes, via Skills & Powers, no via Complete Fighter's Handbook. It depends which of those rules are in play.


Not with those handy extra intelligence based weapon proficiencies, he has a total of 9 to play with. Technically, I suppose he could even go with weapon mastery as a better choice than Blade Singing, but that requires 4 slots (or 8 character points), so you would probably have to strain the character point rules to get that.

u dizzy me with all that discusion XDD

i was trying to read the complete ninja rule book but is too hard to get something clean for one who never played 2ed before ¬¬

anyway. shadow warrior kit it seams to be a mix between fighter and thief. any though ?

and about martial arts seams to be something usefull and good looking but i fail to undertand the manuevers and bonuses and especially the "adv." martial art part.

[Caliphbubba]

Nah, Skills & Powers allows it. Not a lot of difference between house rules and optional rules in my opinion, but for the purposes of this exercise all optional rules are apparently available.

Ah. I missed that part. In that case I'll have to agree with you in saying that Fighter/Thief is probably a better option.

[Matthew]

u dizzy me with all that discusion XDD

Heh; yeah, we are probably making this slightly more difficult than it needs to be by hunting out obscure rules, but that is where we have to look.

Under the default rules you would basically have the option of:

Level 8 Human Thief
Move 12; Hit Points 8d6; THAC0 17; ST 12/12/11/15/13.
Thief Abilities +240%
Weapons and Armour: As Thief
Unlimited Level Advancement

Level 8 Elf Thief
Move 12; Hit Points 8d6; THAC0 17(16); ST 12/12/11/15/13.
Thief Abilities +240%
Weapons and Armour: As Thief
Elf Abilities, Maximum Level 12

Level 6/6 Elf Fighter Thief
Move 12; Hit Points (6d10 + 6d6)/2; THAC0 15(14); ST 11/12/11/13/13.
Thief Abilities +180%
Weapons and Armour: As Fighter
Elf Abilities, Maximum Levels 12/12

With a dexterity of 17 you can always fight with long sword and short sword at +0/−2, though thieves are limited to short bows for a ranged weapon.

Once you start adding in the various optional rules, things get complicated because not all of them agree with one another, but through them you can potentially eliminate all penalties for fighting with two weapons, and as a fighter get up to a +3/+3 bonus to hit and damage (for six proficiency slots or twelve character points). As a fighter or thief, and if the game master permits its use when fighting with two weapons you can get the Blade-Singing fighting style for two to three proficiency slots.

I was trying to read the complete ninja rule book but is too hard to get something clean for one who never played 2ed before ¬¬

anyway. shadow warrior kit it seams to be a mix between fighter and thief. any though ?

and about martial arts seams to be something usefull and good looking but i fail to undertand the manuevers and bonuses and especially the "adv." martial art part.

I have to admit, I am not really familiar with that book, but the Shadow-Warrior looks like you gain only limited weapon specialisation and lose quite a lot for the privilege.

[Ruinix]

thx for al the help, today i see my DM and will try to birth this new rogue ^^

[Matthew]

thx for al the help, today i see my DM and will try to birth this new rogue ^^

No problem, best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[Ruinix]

No problem, best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.

hehe dont worry i will, specially if this experiment end well, cause i only played 2ed one or two times and i never enjoyed XDDD