Broken things in Shadowrun

[JeenLeen]

I might try to convince my gaming group to try Shadowrun sometime in the future. We have the 4th version rulebook and some splat books.

Is there anything really broken or any rather common houserules? About half of our group are heavy optimizers (myself included) and we generally make as strong a character as we can conceive that still makes sense within the system's setting. If we do play, we'd like to enter with bans or rule changes that would prohibit or hinder the most broken things.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Below is an exhaustive list of things that are broken in SR:

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Everything

However, this list is counterbalanced by making combat a game of rocket tag. It is insanely easy to die in SR, so you shouldn't really worry about having combat monsters walking around.

[balistafreak]

+1. You might have the biggest combat capability out there, but it is startlingly easy to die/get disabled/whatever.

The classic example of "broken" is the crippling drug addict who can take insane jobs because he's got extra build points, but the funds from that job just go towards feeding his crippling drug addiction. It's a vicious cycle... and not really that broken.

I'm sure there are some sorts of loopholes in the rules, but those should frankly be obvious after being unearthed, and subsequently banned.

The biggest problem I think was the idea that characters can take several rounds to a less powerful character's one with nothing more complex than a single spell or augmentation. At best this is boring for people who don't want to shell out for the magic/cyberware/bioware to get those extra turns, and at worst it makes them completely unable to compete. Common houserule is to ban all forms of turn manipulation; everyone gets their one turn, no extras.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm sure there are some sorts of loopholes in the rules, but those should frankly be obvious after being unearthed, and subsequently banned.

SR4 actually does a "good" job of adding in "DM monitoring clauses" to all the broken stuff - unfortunately a DM who is unfamiliar with the system is probably not going to notice them right off the bat.

Far better to say "don't try to twink out on Merits/Flaws - it's boring and I'll make you pay" and then roll with whatever they make.

The "extra turn" fix makes sense but nerfs Wired Reflexes et al. to hell. Since Wired Reflexes are so central to the SR mythos, I'd just as soon let the Street Sams play while the 'casters and hackers run around with persistent spells and programs.

Plus, it's real easy to get high Initiative in SR regardless of your "class;" a player who refuses to take one of the many options is basically nerfing themselves. It's like playing a Street Sam and refusing to buy weapons or armor - you're missing the point of what it means to be 'runner.

[balistafreak]

The "extra turn" fix makes sense but nerfs Wired Reflexes et al. to hell. Since Wired Reflexes are so central to the SR mythos, I'd just as soon let the Street Sams play while the 'casters and hackers run around with persistent spells and programs.

Plus, it's real easy to get high Initiative in SR regardless of your "class;" a player who refuses to take one of the many options is basically nerfing themselves. It's like playing a Street Sam and refusing to buy weapons or armor - you're missing the point of what it means to be 'runner.

The point I was trying to make was "either everyone has extra turns, so no one has extra turns" or "no one has extra turns". Either everyone in the party and their enemies have extra turns, so that the end result is the same, or you just flat-ban extra turns and let them spend their points elsewhere in the build.

Call it a sort of gentleman's agreement. "Since even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, you're all going to ensure you have the maximum amount of turns available to you as possible. However, because even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, I'm going to have to make your enemies keep pace with you... defeating the purpose of extra turns. To make things simpler, there are no extra turns in the first place."

Wired Reflexes may be part of the mythos, but when everyone has them they don't really do anything special in and of themselves. Just presume that everyone has some way of being fast, because they're runners, for god's sake.

Casters and hackers having "extra turns" doesn't really convince me either, because didn't I just ban all extra turns in the first place? Maybe I missed something about persistent spells.

Or maybe I just didn't play with enough mooks. I've always preferred fighting against competent, equal level foes. The other way to balance it would be "Yeah, you have three turns to their one, but they outnumber you six to one, so it's all good"... which works too. The bookkeeping can get painful, though.

YMMV. It's just an alternate way of playing, not a necessary one.

[JeenLeen]

SR4 actually does a "good" job of adding in "DM monitoring clauses" to all the broken stuff - unfortunately a DM who is unfamiliar with the system is probably not going to notice them right off the bat.

I did notice lines under some things, like the quality/trait (I forget the technical term) needed to become one of the magic-users or a technomancer, stating that although it's cheap, it's not something someone should get unless they plan on making that type of character.

Is it easily abusable to be a street samuri-type with one or two spells or technomancer programs?

[kjones]

By "broken", do you mean "mechanically imbalanced", or do you mean "doesn't really work as a mechanic"? For the former, there's a lot of possibilities (Agent software, Mr. Lucky, the Pornomancer...) For the latter, there's still a lot of possibilities (Tactical vehicular movement comes to mind).

I'd recommend just getting into the game. The stuff that bothers you will become readily apparent in short order, and then you can houserule to your heart's content.

[JaronK]

Shadowrun is nowhere near as broken as D&D. There's nothing like Flowing Time Genesis out there. With that said, Spirits are extremely strong and Stick and Shock ammo is a bit nuts. Otherwise... meh. It's a game where you can get shot and die if an enemy gets the chance, so the game is more about "how do we make sure our enemies don't get to chose what's going on, while ensuring we play on our playing field."

JaronK

[Oracle_Hunter]

Call it a sort of gentleman's agreement. "Since even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, you're all going to ensure you have the maximum amount of turns available to you as possible. However, because even being one turn behind is basically an auto-lose, I'm going to have to make your enemies keep pace with you... defeating the purpose of extra turns. To make things simpler, there are no extra turns in the first place."

Well, being one-turn behind shouldn't be an auto-lose. As a 'runner you shouldn't be taking on masses of boosted foes unless

(A) you have the element of surprise OR
(B) you have excellent force multipliers

It should work out such that all PCs are within 1 turn of each other with some of the NPCs maybe having a 1 turn advantage, but most being on par or lower than. Remember that not everyone in the SR Universe has high Initiative - but every 'runner needs to have one if they expect to survive in the Shadows!

Also, don't think of unboosted corporate security as being "mooks." They have good firepower, good armor, and excellent training. Just because not every one of them has Wired Reflexes III doesn't mean they're not good for their job - it's just that their job isn't to take on elite 'runner teams like your PCs. That's what Rapid Response Teams are for

EDIT: A brief description of Force Multipliers. You can challenge a 'runner team without using another 'runner team - superor intel, numbers, or supplies can be more than enough to foil a 'runner team that thinks an extra Initiative Pass is all they need to run the table.

[Bharg]

Below is an exhaustive list of things that are broken in SR:

Spoiler

Show

Everything

However, this list is counterbalanced by making combat a game of rocket tag. It is insanely easy to die in SR, so you shouldn't really worry about having combat monsters walking around.

This sounds a bit discouraging...

I just got the german version of the 4th Edition Manual (which is full of eyecandy and well written short stories)...
You still like the game? Why would you recommend it or what is great about it for you?

[Oracle_Hunter]

This sounds a bit discouraging...

I just got the german version of the 4th Edition Manual (which is full of eyecandy and well written short stories)...
You still like the game? Why would you recommend it or what is great about it for you?

OK, full disclosure:

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I am a SR fan from waaay back (OK, SR2) but I read over the SR4 book to see if it was worth upgrading. My opinion was that they boiled out the flavor of the previous editions without making it any easier to play.

That said, SR4 is an improvement on the previous editions for one simple reason - they made Deckers and Riggers playable classes.

In the previous editions, playing a Decker or a Rigger triggered what I dubbed "The Decker Problem" - you had a class that excelled in one particular area (i.e. decking) while being useless everywhere else. On the flipside, nobody else could do anything (realistically) while a Decker was doing their thing - each round of Decking took a microsecond game time but just as long in real time. Riggers were a less extreme - but similar - case.

I deplore many of the favor changes (wireless decking? Magical deckers? Shamans & Hermetics being identical?!) but if you really want to play a Decker or a Rigger, 4E is for you.

The important thing to remember is that Shadowrun isn't D&D. It isn't even Exalted. It is so easy to powergame SR (in any edition) that the term basically loses all meaning. However, it is such a lethal game that the rate of mortality between overpowered and underpowered characters is slight; the best way to survive in Shadowrun is by being a smart player not by being a powerful character.

So yeah, it's fun in a TSR D&D sense - your character is just a vehicle for the plot, not an end in itself. The real game is between the DM and the Players, with each trying to outsmart the other. If you like that kind of game, SR is for you; otherwise you probably should be playing GURPS or Rifts if you're looking for a nice evening of powergaming at its finest

[Bharg]

What do you mean by "did boil out the flavor"?

[Oracle_Hunter]

What do you mean by "did boil out the flavor"?

Small Rant

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Well, one of the roots of SR are William Gibbson's early works (e.g. Neuromancer, Count Zero) in which the blending of humanity and technology was a major theme. The fact that people had technology in them and, more importantly, plugged themselves into technology said a lot about the dehumanizing nature of the dystopian setting.

In SR4 you no longer are wired into infrastructure of a rotting world; information flies through the air and floats about everyone in their personal networks. Worse, technology is no longer antithetical to magic ("the old ways" in previous editions); you have technomancers who speak with the "spirits" of the net. Everyone has mobility and the chance to make their own space within this new world - the polar opposite of the deadly & frightening Matrix that Gibbson spawned.

Next, they took away the divide between Hermetic and Shamantic magic. Shamantic magic came from "the old ways" - a vaguely anarchic approach to life where spirits were everywhere and could be called upon by Shaman; yet those very Shaman were in thrall to their totem. Hermetic magic was the magic of the Megacorp - Science by other means. It was commodified and drained of vital energy by the Corps to create their "Wage Mages." 'Runner Hermetics, on the other hand, were more like "mad scientists" who thrilled at the rush of ruling this new crazy force with their own Willpower.

Now, both Shamantic and Hermetic magic are essentially the same - they summon the same spirits the same way, albeit with different names.

[Bharg]

So you just don't like how the world of Shadowrun evolved?
Are there any grave changes in gameterms that make the game less enjoyable?

[Oracle_Hunter]

So you just don't like how the world of Shadowrun evolved?
Are there any grave changes in gameterms that make the game less enjoyable?

Well, not mechanically.

As I stated, they didn't really make any important changes in the rules. Sure they altered die pools, karma, skills, etc. but in essence the system is just as complicated as it was before.

I've never been a believer that rules complexity = better game, so I would have been happy if they had made some reasonable alterations to the rules to make the game run smoother. But since they didn't, I have to choose based on other factors - and fluff is one of the things that I enjoy most about SR.

Still, if I wanted to run a game of SR and I had a player who really wanted to deck or rig, I'd probably use SR4 - provided someone loaned me a copy again

[Satyr]

Debatable. Older editions had a trigonal approach towards success rolls - with a variable target number, in relation to the number of dice to the number of successes and had a pretty neat system of resource pools were you could adjust the number of dices you roll for a particular option. 4th edition changed that to a two dimensional approach with a fixed target number, and that is just a little flatter. As far as I can tell - and I am not that familiar with the 4th edition rules as with its progenitors - it's not really much simpler, but mostly different. However, I don't think that this is a significant drawback for someone who is introduced to the game with the 4th edition and is therefore not used to the original system.

There was a Jump the Shark moment for Shadowrun, as far as I am concerned and that is that bulldrek Year of the Comet and its obnoxious muppets.

[Aroka]

There was a Jump the Shark moment for Shadowrun, as far as I am concerned and that is that bulldrek Year of the Comet and its obnoxious muppets.

I was never "into" Shadowrun like I was into Cyberpunk 2020, but even so, reading the Companion with the satyrs and cyclops and drakes (I wish I was kidding) and the random mutants with blue fur or tails was a complete shock. It's so jarringly wrong for the setting, doesn't even begin to fit in anywhere, and doesn't even seem to be referenced much of anywhere outside that book. It's like it's describing some other game's setting entirely.

Edit: Admittedly, my players thought full 'borgs and power armor were a shark-jump for CP2020, whereas I love that stuff.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Debatable. Older editions had a trigonal approach towards success rolls - with a variable target number, in relation to the number of dice to the number of successes and had a pretty neat system of resource pools were you could adjust the number of dices you roll for a particular option. 4th edition changed that to a two dimensional approach with a fixed target number, and that is just a little flatter.

Oh yeah, I forgot to emphasize this.

The rolling mechanic in SR4 is much cleaner than previous editions. And, while extra resource pools are fun they do make the game harder for newbies to pick up. It just so happens my local crew are all hardened veterans who just love the "pool" system.

For newbies, I'd definitely recommend SR4 over previous editions. If they're not already wedded to the fluff there's no reason for them to struggle with overly-complicated dice rolling systems.

[Vizzerdrix]

Archer Adept Trolls. Can crank out enough Damage to put down a tank in a few shots. I think it needs an ability from a splat book though

Canibal Mages. Need the Streetmagic book, but can go infinite on stats

[JaronK]

How are adept archer trolls broken? Yes, they hit hard... but with poor range for such a big weapon, no concealability, and little flexibility. You could almost certainly have also gotten a kill with a Sniper Rifle firing AV rounds... and still had the ability to collapse the rifle and leave stealthily, plus you could have been cybered instead and have flexibility.

Shadowrun is not about raw power. You're strong enough already. It's about figuring out how to apply that power effectively.

JaronK

[Poil]

How are adept archer trolls broken? Yes, they hit hard... but with poor range for such a big weapon

900 meters is poor range? Max range is just a multiplier on strength which should be maxed out. Just a -3 to hit at it too.

[Pechvarry]

Something we like to use to alleviate the horrendous power of additional passes:

Up everyone's starting initiative passes. We're currently using 2 (a primary and a secondary, so to speak. plus extras from other sources) but 3 seems feasible if you don't mind thinking about how ridiculous your movement's getting diced up. With everyone having additional passes, the advantage of +1 pass is comparatively weaker.

As for the rules in general: it seems like many SR4 rules were written from conflicting viewpoints. Or at least very narrow viewpoints. For example, melee. Taking aside viability of melee and whether or not it should even be an option, their rules just aren't well justified. They say "it takes a complex action because you're dodging, feinting, grappling". But if the other guy has a gun, I need to jump kick him now or die. I am most definitely not pulling the ol' juke'n'weave. And so, even in melee range, you may be better off unloading a full auto burst on the rent-a-cop than cracking him in the head with your rifle butt.

Regrettably, I find myself running dry on other examples. Maybe I just don't know the system well enough. Also: it's awkwardly easy to blow yourself up with grenades.

[Another_Poet]

The big things to note during char gen are:

-Wired Reflexes are unbalanced (Wired 1 gives you 1 extra turn per round of combat; powerful but not too bad. Wired 2 or 3 gives 2 or 3 extra turns and starts to make things ridiculous.) Magic equivalent is the same.

-Edge is the most powerful stat in the game, maybe put a cap on Edge or just give everyone the same fixed Edge score (plus/minus racial adjustments if any)

-Put a max on how many weaknesses can be taken to gain extra BP. Two is probably reasonable.

-Read about the max starting levels for skills and enforce them. If you have people spending their BP to raise a bunch of crucial skills to 6, you are doing it wrong. There are strict limits on starting skills for a normal game (even if you have more BP to spend) and you should check every sheet.

-If players complain about lethality, advise they consider the following things: a) better armour, b) better use of magic, c) dev their Dodge skill (I think that is what it's called), d) take the quality that lets you go more boxes before taking penalties, e) take the quality that makes it easier to heal you, f) remind them they can permanently burn a point of Edge to survive an otherwise lethal situation. Oh and also g) it's not D&D.

Other than that, good freakin' luck. Welcome to the jambalaya of rule systems.

[JaronK]

900 meters is poor range? Max range is just a multiplier on strength which should be maxed out. Just a -3 to hit at it too.

For an anti tank round, yes. Compare it to Assault Cannons and Missile Launchers (similar damage and lack of concealability). Even sniper rifles have better range without having to have a maxed out strength score. Plus, the skills for Assault Cannons, Missile Launchers and Sniper Rifles let you use a bunch of other weapons, while the skill for bows only gives you non concealable weapons that can't use burst fire or similar.

JaronK

[Otodetu]

Wait, so you can kill a tank with a bow in that system?

How is that not a great benefit? a bow is like alot easier to get hold off than anti-tank weapons.

[JaronK]

It's easier to get early on (and yes, it makes sense... modern compound bows are incredibly powerful, and a troll sized one would be twice the size with far more than twice the power behind it). But that's pretty much the only advantage of bows. Later on when you get access to more traditional tank killers the inflexibility of bows as a skill becomes a serious issue. I'm not saying it's an unviable tactic, but rather that it's just one of many tactics and hardly overpowered.

JaronK

[Pechvarry]

-Put a max on how many weaknesses can be taken to gain extra BP. Two is probably reasonable.

I'm pretty sure SR4 has a cap to the amount of bonus BP you can obtain from positive qualities.

[Ranos]

If you want concealability, get thrown.
Then take a handful of bullets and throw them faster than a gun ever could.

[SuperCracker]

Hand-to-Hand combat is terrible in SR4. Last time I played was in SR2, and my sword-wielding Adept was viable.

Not anymore!

In SR4, Adepts are generally not as good as the other archetypes (they tried to fix this a bit with errata for certain power point costs, but it's still not good enough), and melee combat is a joke. It's a complex action that your opponent applies their full defense to. In gunfights: you can shoot twice (two simple actions) and I believe they only get their reaction.

Yes this is more "realistic." But it's way less awesome.

[Pechvarry]

They don't necessarily get to apply Full Defense benefits, but they do get to add in an extra skill to their defense.

And don't forget, the moment you engage in melee, you take a penalty to your defense against other ranged attackers! See above for why Complex action for melee isn't even realistic.