Optimization vs Playable Character

[McClintock]

I am not sure if this will turn out to be a rant or a question, but here goes:

I play in a group where I am generally the most optimized character, with 2 others that come close, 1 who has little time to read so usually goes straight classed and a final that usually plays whatever someone else just played in the last campaign that seemed powerful.

Our DM runs the modules straight (but will tweak minor things as necessary), so he has no complaint about under -optimized characters. Mostly because this creates a challenge, whereas optimized characters walk through his encounters. He is a busy father of 2 soccer children (and coach to one of them), works full time and exercises regularly... so no time to re-write modules.

This is all leading to reading the boards and seeing builds that are 2/1/3/4/2/3/4/1 which produce some awesome paper characters, but how do you role-play that many life changes? How do you justify 2 levels of rogue a dip of barbarian, and 2 or three prestige classes to you get sneak attack, rage full BAb, and a few spells?

We limit ourselves to 2 base classes and 2 prestige classes and even then have to have a good reason to jump around so much.

EX: I am playing a swash/fighter/dervish (well i will be) who starts out on a ship, takes up with some militia folk and studies to learn the dervish ways. Our group wouldn't have it any other way, and I wouldn't want to.

Bouncing around alot you could end up with stuff like this: Barbarian1 / Ranger2 / Scout5 / Swordsage2 / Dervish10. Then you are all over the board. It just seems odd.

I guess that brings me to my actual question. How do you convincingly role-play all those life changes with out your character coming off as indecisive? How can a benefactor take you seriously if you cannot stick to one thing?

[Caphi]

Classes are metagame abstractions. As long as all the abilities piling up follow the character's theme, it doesn't matter what they're called.

Besides, that many classes is going to lead to a horrible lack of focus even if your GM waives, as they should, the multiclass xp penalties. Dips and splashes can be "I picked up a neat trick from the Lion Tribe barbarians a few years ago."

(Didn't we have this thread like a week ago?)

[Kesnit]

You are mistaking Theoretical Optimization for characters most people actually play. TO is a "mind game" to take RAW and do everything within them to be as powerful as possible, and those tend to be the builds you are referring to (although Rogue and Barbarian are seldom seen in TO builds, but you get what I mean, I hope).

[Gametime]

Most people on this board who multiclass heavily (or aren't opposed to it, even if they don't do it themselves) view classes as a metagame construct. A level in "fighter" gives you certain abilities related to fighting, but you aren't just a "fighter." You're a swordsman, or a guard, or what have you.

Some archetypes, like swashbuckler, have a lot of leeway. Are you a fighter, because you're skilled at hitting stuff? A rogue, because you're skilled at, well, skills, and can drive your blade home for extra hurtin' on an unsuspecting foe?

Basically, the idea is that you should take the combination of classes that grant you the abilities which best represent your character. One example I always liked was Ashiel's, where a "samurai" was represented by levels in (I think) rogue, barbarian, and fighter. Every ability represented some fundamental part of the whole, rather than representing diversions from a premade training schematic.

If it helps, pretend that the heavy multiclassing is just gaining levels in a single, very specialized, homebrew class, since that's basically the intention.

[AmberVael]

I guess that brings me to my actual question. How do you convincingly role-play all those life changes with out your character coming off as indecisive? How can a benefactor take you seriously if you cannot stick to one thing?

Who says they are all life changes?

This is a major problem with perception of classes- just because you have a ton of classes doesn't mean you don't have a coherent character. Your good old Barbarian1 / Ranger2 / Scout5 / Swordsage2 / Dervish10 can be quite easily condensed and explained.

Barbarian1 / Ranger2 / Scout5, for example. All of these? You can really, really easily mesh them together. Dervish too, really. And if you're going for a Swordsage focused on things like diamond mind and tiger claw? Well, that fits in too.

Said character would be a very wilderness focused person, with some sneaky hunting and absurd, crazy survival skills. There's ranger and scout for you. Both of them work towards that role. Barbarian could take a more tribal and feral bent to it. So you're a sneaky, clever hunter from a barbarian tribe. Your rage? Well, it's obviously not something you use all the time (you can't, in fact, it's only 1/day). Call it a last resort thing, where you just go berserk. Maybe you channel the rage of the bear? Suffice to say, it can easily be worked into the fluff as a very special thing used by warriors in a bad situation (while you've trained mostly for hunting, hence your other levels).

Maybe once you started getting out into a world beyond your backwoods village, you had to learn to fight more. Got to put all those skills you have to use in a more brutal way- hunting deer doesn't really keep you alive when people are coming at you with knives, yeah? But what kind of skills do you have? Well, you're fast, and focusing on quick, hard strikes. So, Dervish. You start putting what little you do know to use, slowly building on it until you have this really fast, lethal style.

And there you have it. Coherent concept which gives no sign of the myriad classes making it up.

[jiriku]

Does it really matter how? The simple fact is that some players write good backstories and some don't, and some characters have many classes, while others don't. There's little connection between the two elements of story and mechanics.

I've played characters with one class and characters with seven. All were rich, involved characters with interesting histories and personas. I have a gaming buddy who's also played characters with one class or with many. All of his characters are uniformly vengeful warriors bent on amassing personal power. He just doesn't have the knack or interest to develop interesting character histories.

The number of classes on a character sheet is pretty much irrelevant to a character's backstory and persona.

[kamikasei]

Joining the chorus of "classes are a metagame construct", and also pointing out: most dip-heavy builds are for melee, because BAB stacks. A bunch of melee classes each contributing one or two neat abilities is still "fightan man", just "fightan man with kewl tricks". The other common case, a full caster taking a few full-casting PrCs to get actual class abilities, is equally "I am still a wizard, I just can do funky stuff now besides the spells". And then you have gish or theurge characters where the mix of abilities provided by the various classes is part of the whole concept of the character to start with.

I wouldn't require a swashbuckler/fighter/dervish to jump through any in-character hoops to explain her progression. She's a smart fighter. She gets better at fighting, though not particularly smarter about it. She gets quicker at it. That's it.

[Urpriest]

I'll add that the idea that you have to be in a militia to take levels of fighter is just plain silly. Consider the fact that your character could have the exact same backstory, personality, and fighting style, all as a single-classed fighter. As such, levels in fighter are no different in terms of lifestyle than levels in swashbuckler, and it is perfectly reasonable to multiclass between the two.

Note that some classes aren't like this: monks and paladins have mutliclass restrictions, which imply that they are specific lifestyles in their own right. Druids learn Druidic, so they're all part of a world-spanning organization. For most classes, though, especially martial ones, the same backstory and lifestyle can fit many different classes, or a mutliclass of several.

[Malakar]

My Character is a Knight.

He does knightly things, like ride around on a trusted steed shoving sharp poles into Dragons, Wear Heavy Armor, Be Fearless, Not Die, Be Good, and Occasionally pull out a bow when Dragons are flying.

His build is Fighter 2/Paladin 3/Ranger 2/Dragon Slayer 3/Whatever else you want here.

He was not once a fighter, then become a paladin, then stop being a paladin, live in the woods, then slay dragons.

He just happens to be good at mounted combat, resistant to fear and dragon breath and spells (and anything else with a save) shoot a bow passably well, and do a good job against Dragons.

He's also good at riding, Diplomacy, and Seeing things.

[Snake-Aes]

The Adage(and it was said here): Coherence of Character does not preclude funky multiclassing nor optimization. A Coherent character is so as long as he is consistent and what he can do fits what he is. If what he does is "magic knight that kicks ass and protects himself through magic", and it can be explained by, say, "Duskblade 3, Spellthief 4, Suel Arcanamach 4, Abjurant Champion 5, Spellsword 4", then it's perfectly usable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In-character: "Hi, I'm a [class]!" is the opposite of role-playing. Characters have absolutely no concept of classes or levels in-character. Here's an example:

Right now I'm playing a Killoren VoP Druid whose people live like the Na'vi, but he wouldn't describe himself as a Druid. In this game magical creatures and spellcasters have been slowly dying off, including my character's people. He is a Seeker, one of many who was sent out into the world to find out what was afflicting them and hopefully put a stop to it. If my character met a Killoren Savage Bard with Wild Cohort who was also a Seeker, he would consider himself to have more in common with that character than with another Druid who'd stayed home. If he met a Killoren Ranger or Wilderness Rogue who was also a Seeker then he would consider himself to have more in common with that character than with another Druid who'd stayed home. Mechanically these characters are all very different, but they do all have similarly themed abilities. In-character they have the same goals and motivations, things they can actually perceive, so they see those things in common with each other and aren't even aware of their difference of class.

A city guard who's a single-classed Fighter would describe himself as a guard rather than a fighter. An arena champion who's a single-classed Fighter would describe himself as a gladiator rather than a fighter. A back-alley thug who's a single-classed Fighter would probably describe himself as a goon or bully before he'd use the word fighter to do so. As numbers on a sheet of paper these characters are all very similar, but in-character they see themselves as completely different people with nothing in common with each other.

[Caphi]

In-character: "Hi, I'm a [class]!" is the opposite of role-playing. Characters have absolutely no concept of classes or levels in-character.

I'm playing a swordsage. He's not a sage, and he doesn't use a sword.

I'm playing a sorceror too. She's an arcane bioweapon engineered and raised by druids to add to their magical capabilities during a prolonged war.

[Tinydwarfman]

I'll take it one step further. My character is a nature lover who spends all of his time in the back country with his lifelong leopard companion, and detests civilization. From an early age, he found a magical bow which he can call to his side at any time, and soon began learning minor magical tricks to accompany his peerless archery. What is my character?
Hint: not a ranger!

Spoiler

Show

Warlock with Wild Cohort, Eldritch Spear, and a love of nature.

[Coplantor]

I´m playing a transformer with rocket punches engineered by an ancient magical civilization recently found by the party and since it was recently activated it behaves like a baby, though it´s learning.

Warblade 3/Fighter 2/Bloodstorm Blade 5+ warforged with a hombrewed +1 LA template that allows him to cast alter self to change into an animated construct, though he can turn into forms he has already memorized (right now, he has 2 "memory slots")

Guess what? Even if two clases involves blades, he foes unnarmed, also, he doesnt look like a warforged at all

[AvatarZero]

Another vote for "classes are an abstraction". I remember this being called the Jack Sparrow Principle. You can play Jack Sparrow as a Rogue, or a Swashbuckler, or a Rogue/Swashbuckler with levels in Fortune's Friend and a few flaws to represent the loose wiring, but no matter what rules you pick, when you're playing the character you're playing Jack Sparrow.

Tried googling it, no results. Of course with this forum there's a decent chance that any of you googling it will be redirected back here.

edit: But that's not really what the OP is asking about, is it? Optimized characters vs actually playable characters...

Speaking for myself, I have on three separate occasions created a character who was so powerful that the DM couldn't challenge me and the rest of the party at the same time. (Beguiler loves Glitterdust, Eclipse caste loves artifacts and social charms in a social game, Monk loves Improved Trip and an item of Magic Fang.) I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed. A big complex build is a symptom, but not the issue itself. (The DnD characters up there were both single-classed.) Creating a big powerful character is fun. Imagining yourself as the character is also fun, especially if they've got a lot of cool abilities that you could use in everyday life. Actually playing one of these characters alongside people who's characters are, for what ever reason, eclipsed by your competence? Who is that fun for?

[Keld Denar]

Jumping on the bandwagon (poor OP probably feels like we ran him over), your character has no metagame knowledge of his actual classes.

I kinda wish we had this conversation last week, so I could link this whole thread over to the Iron Optimization thread to all the people who got beat up for "unjustified multiclassing", including myself.

Some classes require a bit of RP lead in, such as Sublime Chord (has to have met a Sublime Chord), which, assuming you are building toward it, most DMs would either help you work it in to the story, or handwave it if thats not possible. Those classes are kinda few, and easy to meet with a little bit of player/DM colaboration, and as long as the fluff isn't TOO contradicting (no Pallys of Slaughter becoming Purple Dragon Knights, for example). In the end, it shouldn't matter if the character has 1 class or 10, the character is the whole, rather than simply the sum of the parts.

[Morph Bark]

While agreeing with most that has been said, I think there also is a bit of a distinction whether you're talking about base classes or PrCs, since the latter are more specialized and tend to depend on organizations or highly specialized sets of skills or uses of a particular kind of magical/supernatural ability that someone else needs to teach you. Sure, some PrCs are easy and don't need "life-changing" stuff happening, especially Theurge classes, or simple ones like the Duelist. Jade Phoenix Mage, Assassin, Scarlet Corsair and Sacred Exorcist though? Those are specialized and part of some sort of organization, loose or not, and involve some role-play stuff, though it may often be ignored by players and DMs alike.

[Snake-Aes]

While agreeing with most that has been said, I think there also is a bit of a distinction whether you're talking about base classes or PrCs, since the latter are more specialized and tend to depend on organizations or highly specialized sets of skills or uses of a particular kind of magical/supernatural ability that someone else needs to teach you. Sure, some PrCs are easy and don't need "life-changing" stuff happening, especially Theurge classes, or simple ones like the Duelist. Jade Phoenix Mage, Assassin, Scarlet Corsair and Sacred Exorcist though? Those are specialized and part of some sort of organization, loose or not, and involve some role-play stuff, though it may often be ignored by players and DMs alike.

As you said, if the class just fits what you want to do, but the fluff doesn't...break the fluff. Take it to a back alley and bend it over. Bück Dich!

[Greenish]

Jade Phoenix Mage, Assassin, Scarlet Corsair and Sacred Exorcist though? Those are specialized and part of some sort of organization, loose or not, and involve some role-play stuff, though it may often be ignored by players and DMs alike.

Scarlet Corsair just needs a ship and a reputation, or am I thinking some other "captain the ship and scare people"-PrC?

[Boci]

Also, there is nothing saying your character levels up as the player does. IF you are aiming for abjurant champion by going ranger 2 / fighter 2 / wizard 2 (and taking the levels in that order) there is nothing to say your character lived in the wilderness for 2 years, then went to a fighting academy, then studied arcane arts. He could have trained for all three areas simaltenously. You level one class at a time because its the easiest way to handle it, but that doesn't concern your character's training.

[Snake-Aes]

Scarlet Corsair just needs a ship and a reputation, or am I thinking some other "captain the ship and scare people"-PrC?

Jade Phoenix Mage could have had a prophetic dream, and in the quest to understand it, realized that he is the reincarnation of a great hero. Eternal Blades could be any warriors with a long tradition of mentors. There's Obi-Wan Kenobi there.

[Keld Denar]

I mentioned that in my post. Some of them require some special RP to get into, but as long as that RP isn't contradictory with RP you already have, it shouldn't be hard to work with your DM to allow whatever RP needs to happen, happen.

Also, some PrCs advance other PrCs. This simply reflects your character doing things his own way, rather than the way that they are traditionally done. If you want to progress your Assassin with Unseen Seer, thats fine. Your Death Attack DC will suffer, but you'll be better at using Divinations to slay your foes. Maybe your character puts more stock in planning and precise operations than on any twist of the blade. Whether you take 1 Assassin level, 4 Assassin levels or all 10 Assassin levels, you are still an Assassin, and you were an Assassin before you even took your first Assassin level!

So no, I don't think its a problem even to stack multiple PrCs, again provided that the fluff isn't completely outrageous. Using Sacred Exorcist to progress your Assassin casting is kinda silly, on top of being a nearly impossible character creation decision.

[Snake-Aes]

A new one for eternal blades customized for warforged: A secondary AI!

[Greenish]

Using Sacred Exorcist to progress your Assassin casting is kinda silly, on top of being a nearly impossible character creation decision.

You could be a holy Avenger!

Doing the deeds which must be done, but which the Church of the Silver Flame can't really advertise! (How could they admit having fiendish possessions in the leadership of the church?)

Admittedly, I don't remember what Sacred Exorcist does.

[Caphi]

A new one for eternal blades customized for warforged: A secondary AI!

The bladeguide is actually its own entity that can be attacked (and you lose most Eternal Blade features while it's regenerating), but hey. Bits, floating cameras, etc.

[Snake-Aes]

The bladeguide is actually its own entity that can be attacked (and you lose most Eternal Blade features while it's regenerating), but hey. Bits, floating cameras, etc.

damn ¬.¬
Put it in a gadget then. Assistant AI. They even have bluetooth connectors.

[Aotrs Commander]

My personal best achievement in proving the "classes are metagame concepts" front is my shinobi character, Shuikue Ryushin. He's based around Naruto (both the anime in general and the character in particular). I simply refluffed all his mechanics to match that ideal. He has a fair bit of taijutsu skills, backed up by weapons, and a fair few jutsu powered by his chakra reserves. Ask him what profession he is, and he'll reply (loudly) "I'm a shinobi! An' I'm gonna be a big hero someday! Believe it!"

As an experiment, I asked two of the players not familiar with the mechanics what they thought he was, after the first game. They both sort of some of rogue or wizard or psionic character, because of his jutsu.

Actual class: straight Monk/Cleric with no clever options (though with Divine Counterspell instead of Turn Undead). (Yes, I know there might be better ways to represent the paradigm, but it was as much an experiment to see if I could do a ninja with just a Monk/Cleric; and excercise in reflavouring if you will.) He isn't therefore a monk who became a cleric. He's just Shikue, as he always was, that loud, sometimes obnoxious kid who and that amazing way of getting you to believe in yourself at the most critical of moments...



(Incidently, can you think of a better catchprase for a cleric to spout that "believe it"! I can't...)

[Greenish]

Bouncing around alot you could end up with stuff like this: Barbarian1 / Ranger2 / Scout5 / Swordsage2 / Dervish10. Then you are all over the board. It just seems odd.

Hey, isn't that Drizzt?

[JonestheSpy]

if your GM waives, as they should, the multiclass xp penalties

I would just like to say that I completely, 100% disagree with this statement.

The rule is there precisely to prevent so much of the silliness in class combinations we've seen discussed, and to force players to actually make some choices - yeah, I know, some people seem to hate that.

[Boci]

Hey, isn't that Drizzt?

Or Skilgannon the Damned.

I would just like to say that I completely, 100% disagree with this statement.

The rule is there precisely to prevent so much of the silliness in class combinations we've seen discussed, and to force players to actually make some choices - yeah, I know, some people seem to hate that.

Yes people hate rules that limit flexibility without any return other than helping to lock races into their stereotype.

Also, what is silly about multiclassing with a lot of classes?