Simulate this character in 3.5: Kenshiro

[Jackgar]

So I had a sudden case of "what if?" today and thought it would be a fun experiment to see how we could convert Kenshiro of Fist of the North star to a D&D 3.5 PC. I suppose the easy answer would be some kind of Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage, but that doesn't seem like enough.

To anyone who isn't familiar with the character and his anime/manga, essentially he's a Bruce Lee (anime) or quasi-Mad Max (manga) looking guy who practices a martial art that uses pressure points to do basically anything to your body that he wants. The usual is blowing you up from within, but he's done things like force a guy's legs to walk him backwards off a tower, made a firebreather's throat contract to cause the flames to consume him, made two guys hug each other to death, and all sorts of other ridiculousness. I figure with the flexibility of 3.5, I'm sure there's an optimization that would simulate him perfectly.

And for those of you who ARE familiar with him, I'd want to try for an "ideal" Kenshiro. Since his power changes depending on his portrayl, we'll go with some kind of movie/tv anime mix, with the insane physical feats he's done in the movie (chopping an office building down with one hand, then letting it fall on him without stopping his stride; jumping so high in the air with so much hangtime he's almost flying), with the array of abilities he shows in the show (Musou Tensei, Fist of Lingering Regret, so on)

Of course, it might be possible that he's just so over the top that it can't be done in 3.5 (although almost certainly in, say, Exalted or maybe M&M), but if it can be done, it'd probably be with people here.

[Greenish]

Tashatalora.

[Rixx]

This topic is already dead.

[Jackgar]

Tashatalora.

That's definitely a good start. I do recall him using one of his ranged energy attacks (he rarely uses such attacks, but they're a big deal when he does) to get one of his controlling effects on, but it's usually through touch. Are there any ways of simulating the effect through touch attacks? The fact that Fort saves is definitely a plus for the flavor, though. Even particularly Willfill people like Ameeba have been forced to act by a move, but a guy like Heart who would have a colossal Fort save wouldn't be likely to be affected.

Another thought: He'd need a way to get a LOT of attacks per round, and in multiple directions if necessary.

[Greenish]

That's definitely a good start. I do recall him using one of his ranged energy attacks (he rarely uses such attacks, but they're a big deal when he does) to get one of his controlling effects on, but it's usually through touch. Are there any ways of simulating the effect through touch attacks?

Yes. Say that the effect takes hold when you touch the enemy.

Another thought: He'd need a way to get a LOT of attacks per round, and in multiple directions if necessary.

Tashatalora progresses Flurry of Blows, I seem to recall. Multiple directions is not a problem when there aren't facing rules in the first place.

[Edit]: Snap Kick and/or Roundabout Kick.

[Milskidasith]

There's pretty much no way the guy is epic, as a side note.

Basically the only unique thing about him is that he can get weird effects to happen, but if, as he says, "you're already dead," who cares about the fluff?

[Optimystik]

Tashalatora progresses the following:

- AC
- Fist die
- Flurry

[AslanCross]

This topic is already dead.

I see what you did there.

[Prime32]

Have some links to related topics:
Building Kenshiro
FotNS campaign

Half-giant Monk 2/Unarmed swordsage 3/War mind 10/Unarmed swordsage +4
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows^B, Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, Pressure Point Strike, Rapid Stunning, Stunning Fist^B, Sun School, Tashalatora (war mind), Weakening Touch
Flaws: Grudge Keeper, Honorable Challenge
Equipment: Monk's belt, +1 deep crystal necklace of natural weapons of speed

You can stack greater flurry with Tiger Claw manuevers for massive numbers of attacks, and each one affects two squares. Twice per turn he can create effects which include:

• Stunned for 1 round, nauseated for next
• Paralysis
• Penalty to Str
• Poisoned
• Cannot use magic

These affect both squares, and any squares adjacent to them.

[Milskidasith]

Far too high a level.

[Prime32]

Far too high a level.

Please look at these:

Feats of Strength
Feats of Speed (1 | 2)
Feats of Durability (1 | 2)

Kenshiro can move at supersonic speeds, shrug off tank fire, destroy said tank with his bare hands, lift giant boulders, and turn ethereal while causing anything he passes through to explode.

He's certainly higher-level than Aragorn.

[Milskidasith]

Still far too high a level. Yes, he's impressive. He's not on the scale of level 20 D&D heroes, at all. D&D heroes can instantaneously teleport anywhere, stop time, kill dragons in one hit, decimate armies in seconds, survive being fired on by things that make tanks look like b-b guns, break tanks without spending thirty seconds wailing on them (spending more than part of a six second round would be fairly weak), break basically anything they want with a touch, avoid all attacks from mundane foes, change planes, turn into anything they want, fight gods with good chances of success (for certain builds), come back from the dead casually, etc.

Aragorn is not a high level at all, so I don't know what saying "he's a higher level" implies there.

Yes, he's awesome. That doesn't mean he's 20th level. That doesn't mean 20th level characters are more awesome than him, either.

EDIT: As another side note, D&D is very bad at modelling a lot of things; Kenshiro can go ethereal, which is normally a high level ability, but what he demonstrates otherwise are not things that strike me as level 20 abilities.

[FatR]

Kenshiro is not particularly powerful, in DnD terms. The manga version starts at about level 7-9 and ends at about 10-13. He can curbstomp human and ogre-equivalent mooks until he gets tired, has general strength and endurance above most street-level superheroes, can kill a giant who has supernatural abilities, and defeat warriors who cut people into spaghetti at range by waving their hands. He also has 1001 inventive way to brutally kill mooks. But he's not outright immune to mook-level attacks (he need to avoid arrows and blades), he never fights anything high-level crazy, and only rarely and with major effort he can create outright supernatural effects, like ranged ki attacks.
The anime/OVA versions are not consistent in power level, but tend to present him as significantly more powerful. There, on average, he totally can punch tanks into scrap and cut steel balls bigger than himself in half with his bare hand, and do so without any visible effort. Probably starts at about level 13-14 and levels up a few times in the course of his adventures.

As about the class, I'd propose an unarmed swordsage, with a custom-written maneuver school, as a basis. This is probably the closest fit.

[Jackgar]

Please look at these:

Kenshiro can move at supersonic speeds, shrug off tank fire, destroy said tank with his bare hands, lift giant boulders, and turn ethereal while causing anything he passes through to explode.

He's certainly higher-level than Aragorn.

You forgot one very important feat of both strength and durability. Remember: Movie version is included. Skip to 4:40 (also, he can detect when a little girl's about to get crushed. I'm not sure if it's worth noting, mechanically) And this might not necessarily be an epic feat (not in the mechanical sense!), but in the movie he also survives falling down what's essentially the Grand Canyon, and then having huge chunks of it collapse on him.

Also, I'd think he'd have to at least dip Barbarian, just to Rage. As for Honorable Challenge....would harming the innocent count as an explicit challenge to Kenshiro? I'm sure it doesn't normally, but considering the guy's intense passion for protecting the weak, he might see it that way.

And about the ethereal thing (Musou Tensei), don't forget he can not only manipulate, but outright destroy objects while shifted over, even if they can't touch him back.

[Morph Bark]

Still far too high a level. Yes, he's impressive. He's not on the scale of level 20 D&D heroes, at all. D&D heroes can instantaneously teleport anywhere, stop time, kill dragons in one hit, decimate armies in seconds, survive being fired on by things that make tanks look like b-b guns, break tanks without spending thirty seconds wailing on them (spending more than part of a six second round would be fairly weak), break basically anything they want with a touch, avoid all attacks from mundane foes, change planes, turn into anything they want, fight gods with good chances of success (for certain builds), come back from the dead casually, etc.

This assumes casters though, generally not melee fighters and certainly not monks or psychic warriors.

[Greenish]

This assumes casters though, generally not melee fighters and certainly not monks or psychic warriors.

Psywars are better than most martial characters, and don't deserve to be lumped with monks. (Except in a build, of course.)

[Kythorian]

I have seen only bits and peices of that show, so I have not seen all the things he has done, but keep in mind that your

he also survives falling down what's essentially the Grand Canyon, and then having huge chunks of it collapse on him.

...really isn't that impressive in d&d. falling damage caps at 10d6, and huge chunks of it collapse on him probably isn't any worse than cometfall...so between 15d6 to 20d6 at the most. Even assuming its 20d6...thats only 105 average damage for both falling and the collapse of the canyon on him (assuming no DR, or anything to reduce the falling damage(which seems unlikely, really)). He has high con, so assuming d8's, level 13-15, as people are saying, seems appropriate. He could easily survive that amount of damage at that level.

People just tend to underestimate how massively powerful someone over lvl 10 really is when you look at what they can really do.

[Morph Bark]

I have seen only bits and peices of that show, so I have not seen all the things he has done, but keep in mind that your


...really isn't that impressive in d&d. falling damage caps at 10d6, and huge chunks of it collapse on him probably isn't any worse than cometfall...so between 15d6 to 20d6 at the most. Even assuming its 20d6...thats only 105 average damage for both falling and the collapse of the canyon on him (assuming no DR, or anything to reduce the falling damage(which seems unlikely, really)). He has high con, so assuming d8's, level 13-15, as people are saying, seems appropriate. He could easily survive that amount of damage at that level.

People just tend to underestimate how massively powerful someone over lvl 10 really is when you look at what they can really do.

Wait... I thought it capped at 20d6?

[Kythorian]

Is it? could be...its been a while since I have had to look that one up. Regardless, the point stands. He could survive another 10d6.

For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

[Morph Bark]

Is it? could be...its been a while since I have had to look that one up. Regardless, the point stands. He could survive another 10d6.

For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

Well, it does fall under "rocks fall", basically...

I'm not familiar with the character besides an animated gif I once say, but the OP seems to want the best stuff for Kenshiro:

And for those of you who ARE familiar with him, I'd want to try for an "ideal" Kenshiro. Since his power changes depending on his portrayal

Plus, he mentioned "Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage" -- and I suppose since he didn't say Epic Unarmed Swordsage that at the very least means he's aware of the lower power of the Monk.

At most we can at least determine what level Kenshiro should be at minimum due to the amounts of damage he's been seen taking and dealing (though other characters might he encounters might be close to his level and thus not be appropriate to estimate his damage-dealing capabilities, so objects and the like are better). For all we know he is above level 20, but he just isn't a guy with any high-end magical powers and with no magic items to boost him even further.

I'm just sayin'.

[Jackgar]

Well, it does fall under "rocks fall", basically...

I guess that shows he can make his Save vs DM roll. Which seems pretty high-powered to me!

I'm not familiar with the character besides an animated gif I once say, but the OP seems to want the best stuff for Kenshiro:



Plus, he mentioned "Epic Monk or Unarmed Swordsage" -- and I suppose since he didn't say Epic Unarmed Swordsage that at the very least means he's aware of the lower power of the Monk.

At most we can at least determine what level Kenshiro should be at minimum due to the amounts of damage he's been seen taking and dealing (though other characters might he encounters might be close to his level and thus not be appropriate to estimate his damage-dealing capabilities, so objects and the like are better). For all we know he is above level 20, but he just isn't a guy with any high-end magical powers and with no magic items to boost him even further.

I'm just sayin'.

You're right about why I said Epic Monk and not Epic Swordsage. An Epic Swordsage could do some REALLY stupid crap, while Epic Monk can just do mostly stupid crap. As for the encounters being close to his level, there's an outright absurd power gap between mooks and marquee fighters in the series. Mooks break their axes trying to hurt the guy, while any important named character can fight him about evenly, and it seems all the major martial arts have ways to resist the instant-death effects of Hokuto Shinken.

The equipment thing is a factor here,too, in considering his power. As in, he has none. The only weapon he's even been seen to carry at all is a pair of nunchaku, and that was for about two seconds, just to reflect some knives back into their throwers' skulls. I don't think he even smacked anyone with them. At most, his clothes have some sort of enchantment that allow them to re-form to their original state after exploding off his body in every episode. Very, very few other major characters are seen with any noteworthy gear. Really, just Jagi (shotgun and some explosives), Jackal (Normal guy, but a dynamite-user. Didn't seem to bother Ken, though), and Ulghar (helmet with horns that can be pulled out to make multi-pronged whips). There might be one or two other filler villains, but that's it.

We should at least think on what sort of stats he'd have. Obviously, dex, str, and con are through the roof. Charisma would at least be above-average, as, combined with his reputation, people are always happy to see him, and he makes friends easily. Int might not be quite as high, in large part due to the lack of traditional schooling you'd see being raised to succeed a martial art would get, but he's able to calculate trajectories well. That might just be a basic part of Hokuto Shinken, though. Wisdom should be quite good, at least enough to jack up his Will save, since he sees through illusions without any real difficulty. And I think Pressure Point Strike uses DC10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom modifier, so it'd have to be high enough that it'd be nearly impossible for anyone below a certain level. If we assume all normal mooks in the world are level 1 Fighters, then it should be outright impossible for a level 1 fighter to make, and still very hard for higher levels.
EDIT: Oh and...

For that matter, the canyon falling on him would almost certainly be a refl half, and i could easily see him having evasion, depending on how he was built, meaning he likely took no, or at most, half damage from the canyon falling on him.

He was unconscious at the time. And if I'm not mistaken, you can't make that save if you're not awake.

[Milskidasith]

Err... an epic swordsage doesn't even exist. Without homebrew, there isn't even an epic progression for it; you wouldn't get anything but a higher IL.

Anyway, my post did include melee characters; while not necessarily as much, since casters are broken, melee still fell under the "Wouldn't need thirty seconds to beat up a tank, could easily survive the stuff that Kenshiro survived multiple times, could probably OHKO dragons, could break basically anything [including tanks] in one hit, etc."

[Kythorian]

Ah...you are correct. But even without the save, its still only an avg of at most 140 hp. Which should be fairly easily survivable, assuming good con at lvl 13-14. Lets say 14 for simplicity.

He is supposted to be pretty amazing physically. And i could see high wis based on all the martial arts training. So lets say 36 point build, since hes supposted to be quite awesome in general. (oh, and i agree that the reflecting things back at people is probably just an instictual thing from his martial arts training, not actually working out the trajectories of the paths and how he would need to hit them, etc. So I would say average int).

str 14, dex 14, con 15, int 10, wis 16, cha 12

Plus 3 from levels:

str 14, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 18, cha 12

Plus some inherent bonuses from some manuals he probably read, if he isn't going to bother with any magical equipment.

str 18, dex 18, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Seems appropriate(High MAD, but what do you expect with a monk type?)

And as for that power you mentioned to make people blow up, DC would be 10+7(half of level)+6=23. High enough that a lvl 1 fighter mook would need a natural 20 to succeed, but not high enough that an equal level with decent saves would need too much of a roll.

HP at lvl 14 = 8(1st lvl)+13d8(avg 58.5)+70=136.5

So that fall and the canyon falling on him was probably quite painful, but survivable, anyway.

[Morph Bark]

Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Maybe at some point he got reincarnated into a very good-looking half-ogre?

[Jackgar]

Ah...you are correct. But even without the save, its still only an avg of at most 140 hp. Which should be fairly easily survivable, assuming good con at lvl 13-14. Lets say 14 for simplicity.

He is supposted to be pretty amazing physically. And i could see high wis based on all the martial arts training. So lets say 36 point build, since hes supposted to be quite awesome in general. (oh, and i agree that the reflecting things back at people is probably just an instictual thing from his martial arts training, not actually working out the trajectories of the paths and how he would need to hit them, etc. So I would say average int).

str 14, dex 14, con 15, int 10, wis 16, cha 12

Plus 3 from levels:

str 14, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 18, cha 12

Plus some inherent bonuses from some manuals he probably read, if he isn't going to bother with any magical equipment.

str 18, dex 18, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Plus what appears to be a perm. enlarge person...

str 20, dex 16, con 20, int 10, wis 22, cha 12

Seems appropriate(High MAD, but what do you expect with a monk type?)

And as for that power you mentioned to make people blow up, DC would be 10+7(half of level)+6=23. High enough that a lvl 1 fighter mook would need a natural 20 to succeed, but not high enough that an equal level with decent saves would need too much of a roll.

HP at lvl 14 = 8(1st lvl)+13d8(avg 58.5)+70=136.5

So that fall and the canyon falling on him was probably quite painful, but survivable, anyway.

Looks pretty good, although the Dex seems to be kinda low. He regularly commits some outrageous feats of speed, such as moving faster than the human eye can follow, hitting a very specific sequence of points on an opponent's body without him realizing, and catching an arrow in midair, then throwing it back with two fingers, hitting a very small, specific part of the eye, and so on. I see the perm enlarge person just for stats, although it's more fitting for a guy like Raoh, who really would be a Large creature.

Oh, and in regards to comparing how much damage he does in the tank scene? That's really not the extent he can reach. Like how earlier I put up a clip where he flat-out topples office buildings casually with one hit. And there's another scene in the tv anime where he punches through walls in the interior of a battleship without much (any) effort, and pulls a guy back through it. The walls inside a battleship are made of some pretty damn good steel. The scene also reinforces his high Wis score, since he's able to hear a guy through those thick as hell walls.

[Morph Bark]

Looks pretty good, although the Dex seems to be kinda low. He regularly commits some outrageous feats of speed, such as moving faster than the human eye can follow, hitting a very specific sequence of points on an opponent's body without him realizing, and catching an arrow in midair, then throwing it back with two fingers, hitting a very small, specific part of the eye, and so on. I see the perm enlarge person just for stats, although it's more fitting for a guy like Raoh, who really would be a Large creature.

That's speed though. Monks get ridiculous speed bonuses, plus a lot of those things could simply be feats (Deflect Arrows and then some?).

Not to mention flurry of blows + Mosquito Strike skill trick (unarmed = light weapon) would do something for him.

[Yukitsu]

I get in this argument with a freind sometimes. I think he's about level 14 or so, he thinks he's the paragon of epicness. Then again, I emulated Dante at level 15, so I think I'm giving him a bit too much credit here.

Anyway, first, attacks are an abstraction. If they aren't, I'm a level 16 character, as I can fire a gun more than 6 times hitting center of mass within 6 seconds, and I can swing a sword 4 times, any of which could potentially be damaging if they connect (though in real life, people block a bit more effectively than D&D, where you apparantly just let magic armour do your blocking.)

So, his billion light speed attacks in 6 seconds merely need to describe the damage and number of individuals he could hit.

I'd build him as 11 levels of monk, 2 levels of thug variant fighter, 1 level of warblade.

Race, human.
Feats: jotunbrod, improved natural attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, power attack, stunning fist, deflect arrows, snatch arrows, improved disarm, improved toughness, superior unarmed strike.

Abuses the mosquito's bite skill trick. Uses manuevers to more easily break objects, get more attacks, or to cause more damage.

He can probably survive 6 or so direct hits from tanks with this build, or more if given those really high con scores that people like giving him. He can punch someone into pulp, and they don't feel it for a round, where they spontaneously die, he attacks a large number of times per round compared to any normal person, his attacks probably trigger massive damage saves. He deals enough damage vs. objects that he could very feasibly break an office tower etc.

For reference, first level you will on average survive getting hit by missile: Level 3 barbarian. You even remain concious if you rage. First level you could make an ogre explode to death on a delay in one round is 7 anything with sleight of hand. Strength required to meet the break DC of an office building, around 30.

[Milskidasith]

I get in this argument with a freind sometimes. I think he's about level 14 or so, he thinks he's the paragon of epicness. Then again, I emulated Dante at level 15, so I think I'm giving him a bit too much credit here.

Anyway, first, attacks are an abstraction. If they aren't, I'm a level 16 character, as I can fire a gun more than 6 times hitting center of mass within 6 seconds, and I can swing a sword 4 times, any of which could potentially be damaging if they connect (though in real life, people block a bit more effectively than D&D, where you apparantly just let magic armour do your blocking.)

So, his billion light speed attacks in 6 seconds merely need to describe the damage and number of individuals he could hit.

I'd build him as 11 levels of monk, 2 levels of thug variant fighter, 1 level of warblade.

Race, human.
Feats: jotunbrod, improved natural attack, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, power attack, stunning fist, deflect arrows, snatch arrows, improved disarm, improved toughness, superior unarmed strike.

Abuses the mosquito's bite skill trick. Uses manuevers to more easily break objects, get more attacks, or to cause more damage.

He can probably survive 6 or so direct hits from tanks with this build, or more if given those really high con scores that people like giving him. He can punch someone into pulp, and they don't feel it for a round, where they spontaneously die, he attacks a large number of times per round compared to any normal person, his attacks probably trigger massive damage saves. He deals enough damage vs. objects that he could very feasibly break an office tower etc.

For reference, first level you will on average survive getting hit by missile: Level 3 barbarian. You even remain concious if you rage. First level you could make an ogre explode to death on a delay in one round is 7 anything with sleight of hand. Strength required to meet the break DC of an office building, around 30.

You honestly think it takes a level 7 character to OHKO an ogre?

[Yukitsu]

You honestly think it takes a level 7 character to OHKO an ogre?

Assuming you aren't trying very hard.

Edit: No wait, that's when you can delay it IIRC.

[Greenish]

Assuming you aren't trying very hard.

That explains the 11 levels in monk.