5-20 crit range with Disciple of Dispater (3.5)

[Frog Dragon]

This is an upgrade of the old aptitude kukris and insane crit range trick. I haven't seen this in builds yet so am I missing something, did I actually discover something new (very unlikely) or is there something else about this, like a better trick?
The Disciple of Dispater's (BoVD) Iron Power ability doubles your crit range at level 4 with iron and steel weapons and triples it at level 8. This specifically stacks with Improved Critical. So, using Aptitude Kukris with the Improved Critical Feat you get..
Normal Crit Range 17-20. 4 numbers crit. Imp Crit 13-20, 8 numbers crit.
With Iron Power +1 9-20, 12 numbers crit. Iron Power 5-20, 16 numbers crit.
You could accomplish this at level 14 (as you need BAB +6 to enter). Add Blood in the Water for extra fun.
So yeah.

[Pechvarry]

I don't own BoVD so don't know the class, but your math appears wrong. It looks like you're applying Dispater's multiplication AFTER improved crit which isn't what "stacks with" means, though 17-20 wouldn't be the result anyway.

Ok, you're simply using 17-20 as base stats for kukri. I don't know how you're getting that instead of 18-20.

Kukri: 18-20
Improved crit: 15-20
+1 class feature: 12-20
+2 class feature: 9-20.

Still flippin' potent, but not 5-20.

[Private-Prinny]

Screw BitW, slap Lightning Maces on those puppies.

[Keld Denar]

Do note that the Aptitude Kukiri trick with Lightning Maces is pretty questionable. The intent was obviously to allow an aptitude weapon to benefit from a feat that allows you to CHOOSE a weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, etc, rather than feats that require a specific weapon, such as Lightning Maces, Three Mountains, or god forbid Boomerang Daze.

That said, nice crit range!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Shame you can't use DoD abilities with kaorti weapons, 1d4 9-20 x4 weapon sounds extremely nasty even before rider effects such as prismatic burst

[9mm]

Screw BitW, slap Lightning Maces on those puppies.

your thinking to small... go the full Olo (who came up with this trick and demonstrated it hilliariously in ToS) and get completely metal handcrossbows and add the splitting enhancement: enjoy the exponential damage curve of "how many bolts do you have x2".

[Eldariel]

your thinking to small... go the full Olo (who came up with this trick and demonstrated it hilliariously in ToS) and get completely metal handcrossbows and add the splitting enhancement: enjoy the exponential damage curve of "how many bolts do you have x2".

With Roundabout Kick.

[Keld Denar]

I wrote some MatLab code using the RandomInt function to run simulations of how silly a normal Lightning Maces Aptitude (if you allow it to work) would get. I had a feedback loop that increased damage per hit by 1 every time you confirmed a crit and in theory should be able to calculate the average damage you'd deal before a nasty string of 1s end the iteration.

Unfortunately, I don't have MatLab to actually run the code and check it for bugs, but it looks flawless. Then again, I'm a TERRIBLE debugger, and MatLab is a bassackwards language to code in anyway. Plus, I don't trust the RandomInt function to be completely unbiased...no computer function is ever truely "random".

[Dusk Eclipse]

9mm: wasn't that the build that critted itself to death? I also think it was a night infinite loop.

[Eldariel]

9mm: wasn't that the build that critted itself to death? I also think it was a night infinite loop.

Yes. It's a rather rudimentary loop; basically every attack is a crit and every crit generates more hits (Maces and Roundabout) and every attack is two hits as per Splitting. It gets rather ridiculous rather fast.

[JaronK]

Huh, I remember making that build a while back (not for ToS though) but it used Aptitude Great Crossbows. Great Crossbows have a better critical range than hand crossbows, and with Hand Crossbow Mastery + Aptitude you can still reload them at full speed. It required extra hands though.

JaronK

[Boci]

I wrote some MatLab code using the RandomInt function to run simulations of how silly a normal Lightning Maces Aptitude (if you allow it to work) would get. I had a feedback loop that increased damage per hit by 1 every time you confirmed a crit and in theory should be able to calculate the average damage you'd deal before a nasty string of 1s end the iteration.

Unfortunately, I don't have MatLab to actually run the code and check it for bugs, but it looks flawless. Then again, I'm a TERRIBLE debugger, and MatLab is a bassackwards language to code in anyway. Plus, I don't trust the RandomInt function to be completely unbiased...no computer function is ever truely "random".

Didn't something similar to that spring an argument between between two posters as to whether or not the amount of attacks was theoretically infinite.

[Keld Denar]

Statistically, its not infinite. On any truely infinite string of numbers that range between 1 and 20, there exists a string of 1s long enough to stall out the recusion. Now, the longer it goes, the more successive ones needed to stall it out, but the chance of such a string of 1s never truely reaches 0% at any point. Thus, since there's no chance it can't fail, it must fail at some point and thus can't be truely infinite.

Go go gadget limit calculus!

EDIT for clarity: If you had, say, 5 attacks per round when you started attacking, if you rolled 5 consecutive 1s, the iteration would stall out. If you rolled one hit but no crits, it would take 6 1s to stall out, and if you rolled one crit, it would take at least 7 1st to stall out. If, for example, you rolled all 5 crits, you'd then have 10 attacks remaining, and you'd have to roll 10 1s in order to stall out. If you crit enough without stalling, you might have to roll 1000000000000 1s in a row in order to stall out. The odds of this are EXTREMELY low, but on an infinte string of numbers, the probability of this happening is REALLY low, but never 0. Thus, its its possible to stall out even after you get rolling, but when you do finally stall out, you'll probably find out that you need scientific notation to quantify your damage, and its not really relevant at that point.

[JaronK]

Yup, I was one of them in fact. Never did quite resolve that... I wanted a simulation based on different critical threat values (to see which value went infinite). Basic statistics for this situation doesn't actually work very well, as there's a similar problem that shows a break in how statistics work (the doubling coin flip game).

JaronK

[2xMachina]

Shame you can't use DoD abilities with kaorti weapons, 1d4 9-20 x4 weapon sounds extremely nasty even before rider effects such as prismatic burst

Depends if you want to kill catgirls...

Steel is ok with DoD. Can you use resins to make steel? You can make composite material with them I guess.

But then, you can mix with Crystal Weapon Master. Steel is a crystalline material, so...

Abuse Material Science!

[Keld Denar]

Hey now...respect the grain boundaries or I'll Jominy End Quench you, and it won't be comfortable!

[Frog Dragon]

I don't own BoVD so don't know the class, but your math appears wrong. It looks like you're applying Dispater's multiplication AFTER improved crit which isn't what "stacks with" means, though 17-20 wouldn't be the result anyway.

Ok, you're simply using 17-20 as base stats for kukri. I don't know how you're getting that instead of 18-20.

That's because I war working off memory for the weapons and mistakenly remembered it was an exotic weapon with a crit range of 17-20. I'm applying the multiplication to the base crit and adding together.

[true_shinken]

Well, there IS a 17-20 weapon. Stump Knife from Sword & Fist, I believe.
Of course, Aptitude abuse is silly.

[Tinydwarfman]

Uh, actually Disciple of Dispater was exactly what was used before, you just did normal math, not D&D math.

[true_shinken]

Uh, actually Disciple of Dispater was exactly what was used before, you just did normal math, not D&D math.

Nope, he got the threat range wrong.

[Tinydwarfman]

Nope, he got the threat range wrong.

Ah, right, I've just seen it done so many times I assumed that was what it was.

[SurlySeraph]

Throw in 7 levels in Barbarian with the Streetfighter ACF from Cityscape to make it a 4-20 crit.

[Tinydwarfman]

Throw in 7 levels in Barbarian with the Streetfighter ACF from Cityscape to make it a 4-20 crit.

But only on a charge right?

[Dr.Epic]

This is an upgrade of the old aptitude kukris and insane crit range trick. I haven't seen this in builds yet so am I missing something, did I actually discover something new (very unlikely) or is there something else about this, like a better trick?
The Disciple of Dispater's (BoVD) Iron Power ability doubles your crit range at level 4 with iron and steel weapons and triples it at level 8. This specifically stacks with Improved Critical. So, using Aptitude Kukris with the Improved Critical Feat you get..
Normal Crit Range 17-20. 4 numbers crit. Imp Crit 13-20, 8 numbers crit.
With Iron Power +1 9-20, 12 numbers crit. Iron Power 5-20, 16 numbers crit.
You could accomplish this at level 14 (as you need BAB +6 to enter). Add Blood in the Water for extra fun.
So yeah.

Then the DM decided you'll only be fighting undead and constructs for the next 100 adventures.

[Eurus]

Never seen Streetfighter, but can you get both it and Lion Totem?

[Flickerdart]

Never seen Streetfighter, but can you get both it and Lion Totem?

Streetfighter only replaces Damage Reduction, so yes.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well they changed the way critical threat stacking works between 3.0 and 3.5, so even though Disciple of Dispater wasn't officially revised your DM should probably change the way it works in order to make it acceptable in a 3.5 game. Sorry.

[Optimystik]

Then the DM decided you'll only be fighting undead and constructs for the next 100 adventures.

No love for plants/oozes?

[Mongoose87]

Well they changed the way critical threat stacking works between 3.0 and 3.5, so even though Disciple of Dispater wasn't officially revised your DM should probably change the way it works in order to make it acceptable in a 3.5 game. Sorry.

I disagree. Disciple of Dispater specifically states that it stacks - this is its shtick, whether used for cheese or not.

[Optimystik]

Well they changed the way critical threat stacking works between 3.0 and 3.5, so even though Disciple of Dispater wasn't officially revised your DM should probably change the way it works in order to make it acceptable in a 3.5 game. Sorry.

Sorry for what? That you have houserules?