Brainwashing your way to a pure good world

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, I was looking through the rules in BoED for converting evil people to good. It turns out you just have to force them to fail 7 willsaves in a row with a DC based on a diplomacy check. More exactly a DC equle to the diplomacy roll....

Now that got me thinking about a tippy-verse solution to evil. Now anything that can speak can be turned to the side of good. So here is the idea.

Sir Eldric of Kent's school for the redemption of the unfortunatly Evil.

In a tippy-verse there is a understanding that evil is bad and good is good, and with a uniquivable and inpartial means of determining good and evil without human judgment, due to detection spells, there is something society can do about it.

Spoiled for length.

Spoiler

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Enter Sir Eldric, a warlock 1 / mashal 1 / bard x with leadership. Let's make him somewhat sane and call him level 7. That means that he would have a diplomacy check at somewhere around stupid.
Skill focus +3, skill boosting feat +2, Item of skill boost +6, Cha 18 aplied twice +8, good treatment +2, 10 ranks, Cha boost item (+2) +2

So we are looking at a check bonus of at least 33 without a roll.

Now the evil or nuteral person gets to add his level to the save, but becuse of a universal impartial system that detects good and evil on everyone on a regular basis, say once a year, the majority of the people going through this prossses are level 1. Becuse the overwhelming number of wizards and clerics I will assume a 18 wis and a 3 willsave with iorn will, so a +8 or so total. A character can get an aditional +4 to the save if they are an "always evil" race so let's cap it at +12 to the save.

That still leaves the target saveing only on a twenty. Therefor the chance of a seven day treatment program not working on a average subject is the chance of rolling 7 d20's and not getting a 20 on any of them. That isn't a low chance of succes, and you can tell if it worked through detect evil / good. Repeat untile subject register's good.

The problem comes with what happens when a level 20 wizard turns up evil. Then they are taken to the "high security school" and converted in a giant AMF for security and to prevent excape. I assume that high level character's go through high level divination abilites to ensure thier alignment, mostly Metafaculty. They are epic level wished into the high security school if they resist atending.

For particularly hard targets we break out the big guns. Sir Eldric is a high cha character with leadership, and likely the feat for extra followers, therefor the big guns is a swarm of level one "nobles" who are moderatly charismatic (12) and trained to be plesent people (diplomacy rank 4). They all interact with the target for an hour each day adding and aid other effort onto the conversion, so lets add 20-30 aid others.

Now the check is somewhere around 70, even without any magic gear! even a willsave focused wizard will have only a one in twenty chance of passing that save without serious magic, and the AMF field makes that imposible.

So, the thought project shows that for a properly prepared DnD society, there is no evil, and everyone can live in a society that everyone understands the benifits of being good to one another.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem comes with what happens when a level 20 wizard turns up evil. Then they are taken to the "high security school" and converted in a giant AMF for security and to prevent excape.

This is the only problem, and sort of the underlying root of the Tippyverse. If that level 20 Wizard is evil, how are you possibly supposed to take him to this High Security school if he doesn't want to go? He can easily escape you and go do whatever he wants. Thus, the only people left in the D&D world that are not evil will also be obscenely powerful, and probably full spellcasters. This can't be healthy for the world.

[Fouredged Sword]

Metafaculty to determine his alignment, epic level wish him into the school.

The wish is likely circle magic hightened to spell level 1000 or something. The advantage of this system is that good wizards and psions greatly outnumber the evil to to early conversion.

[Glimbur]

So, even the spell Tongues only lets you talk to things without a language. Luckily, there is a class with a high level ability that lets it talk to any living creature. This means you could conceivably even talk animals and plants in to being good. As a further bonus, this class has diplomacy as a class skill. They have to be Lawful, so they are more likely to cooperate with a large scale organized plan. There is just one small catch to this plan.

The class is the monk.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'd rather just have enough wizard to dip mindbender. Though having a use for monks in a tippy-verse make's me all fuzzy inside.

[The Glyphstone]

Metafaculty to determine his alignment, epic level wish him into the school.

So...now we're using Epic magic? I thought the point of this was Diplomancing the entire world into Goodness. Besides, if Wishes are a risk, the hypothetical wizard can just retreat to a hypothetical demiplane and perform [Insert High-Level Full Caster Shenanigans Here].

Overall, this is a good concept, but the underlying problem is that this will eventually just work as a societal Sorting Algorithm of Evil. Weak evil creatures will succumb to the Diplomacy (I don't know how long you have to wait between the checks), so the only Evil creatures left will all be the powerful ones, capable of resisting the Diplomacy attempts or else killing anyone who tries to 'convert' them before they can get 7 successful checks of...and since they're Evil already, it probably won't bother them to do so.

@Glimber: Win.

[Fouredged Sword]

Metafaculty is a no save no resistance means of determining anything's alignment. No need for epic magic there. I know of no way to resist it well short of epic powers.

Then a few level 20 wizards sit down and circle magic up a hightened wish that is spell level yes to pull the target from whatever demiplane he sits on to a school siting in a massive AMF.

The conversion itself is non magic, and in fact auto fails if you use magic to control the target, like a charm effect. The high level magic is just the only way to contain a high level magic user.

Besides, this will work to, over time, prevent the creation of any new sorces of evil. Old evils will in time be defeated, so evil will slowly fade from the world.

[AmberVael]

So, even the spell Tongues only lets you talk to things without a language. Luckily, there is a class with a high level ability that lets it talk to any living creature. This means you could conceivably even talk animals and plants in to being good. As a further bonus, this class has diplomacy as a class skill. They have to be Lawful, so they are more likely to cooperate with a large scale organized plan. There is just one small catch to this plan.

The class is the monk.

Wow, this is actually perfect. Not only do they have diplomacy and the language ability, but they have an absurd rate of speed, meaning they can travel all over the world in pretty swift order to carry out their message, without much need for other forms of transportation. They're also not really going to get sick or have problems with old age, so... they can just keep working all of their life, full tilt.

Monks: The Tippyverse brainwashing pilgrim cult.

[Fouredged Sword]

The choice is to make them all have VoP or not. Nothing like a supper fast, super diplomacy, undieing, never resting, never eating or breatheing character converting the world to good 24/7.

No, necropolitin monks. Now they really never age. Let them gain timeless body, then age to vulnerable, then turn them into necropolitins so they last forever.

Technicly I don't think you even need to contain the character. If you can find some way to iresistably cast a spell to let you talk to them for an hour each day you could convert them from anywhere. I bet that is easier than casting an wish to transport them.

[The Glyphstone]

Then a few level 20 wizards sit down and circle magic up a hightened wish that is spell level yes to pull the target from whatever demiplane he sits on to a school siting in a massive AMF.

What about when all the 20-level Evil wizards sit down first, seeing what's happening to them, and work up their own circle magic Wish spell to drag in the good Wizards and promptly Mindrape them into joining their cabal?

Heck, even if that fails, it'll just whittle down the evil wizards to the ones who spend all their time Persistent Shapechanged into Constructs for infinite Spell Resistance and live on locked demiplanes while Astrally Projecting. That means only Evil Incantatrixes will survive this purging...and really, is it a good idea to have every max-level evil incantatrix upset at you?

[Fouredged Sword]

Remember, evil don't work well together. You would at least cut the forces of evil down to only lawful evil sorces, and then I think the combined forces of good and the forces all the people turned good could force the issue ehter with conversion or death. The idea is not to be able to beat everyone, but to be on the winning side of a endurence match. With no low level evil around, any evil vanquished is vanquished forever.

[The Glyphstone]

Evil is perfectly capable of working well together if it means their survival - Evil doesn't have to be Stupid...even Chaotic Evil psychopaths can cooperate in the short term...and short term is all they need, to kidnap and Mind-Rape all of the Good wizards capable of kidnapping them in turn.

Good doesn't always work well together either, unless you use mental control magic (which would be Evil). The quoted character would be able to control his followers and cohort, but anyone he or they Diplomanced wouldn't be guaranteed to help them. They could be persuaded to do so, but it's not certain.

(Incidentally, the powerful Evil characters who escape this are also probably at the top of the list for "beings most likely to seek immortality through lichdom/etc.", so it's not like they can be outlasted. they'll always be there, and probably a bit peeved that you drove them out of the Prime Material into hiding.)


EDIT: Now that I think of it, this could be a cool campaign concept. Eons ago, there was a tide of spontaneous "good fervor" that swept over the world and basically converted everyone to Good. The only 'survivors' were the most powerful and despicable Evil sorcerers and villains and their minions/followers, who fled into the multiverse out of reach of their enemies. For thousands of years they plotted and waited, building an entire subculture based on principles of evil and hatred for the Prime world. Now, led by the immortal undead archvillains who originally fled the purging, they return to get revenge.

[AmberVael]

EDIT: Now that I think of it, this could be a cool campaign concept.

That's exactly what I was thinking. That could be really fun.
Obviously the PCs would be the villains.

[The Glyphstone]

That's exactly what I was thinking. That could be really fun.
Obviously the PCs would be the villains.

And if you play it right, they could even turn out as anti-heroes! Consider any or all of the following:

• The lack of mortal Evil in the world is causing a cosmic imbalance. Threatened by extinction, Demons and Devils have finally called armistice on the Blood War and turned against Celestia. The only way they can be abated is by restoring the flow of mortal souls to tend to, distracting them enough for Good to regain its footing.
• Same as above, but reversed. Both the Abyss and the Nine Hells are weak, and the Heavens have gone on the offensive. But something watches, something unspeakable and squamous, that was only holding off its offensive to see which side won.
• What the good crusaders fought against, they have now become. An oppressive police state exists with paladins constantly Detecting for naturally Evil people, who are ushered off into brainwashing facilities to 'cure' them. Someone needs to bring down the establishment and restore free will to the masses.
• Similar, but minus the dystopian feel. Instead, Good has prevailed for too long, and mortals are suffering because of it. The entire world is sickly-sweet and cutesy, causing creativity and inventiveness to go flat. Break the stagnation by shocking the populace into thinking again, make them aware that the world has not always been this way.

[Fouredged Sword]

As a tippyverse this was intended more to show the sillyness of the rules rather than be a real game world. On the other hand I like the way you took it and ran with it. This would be a great way to run a chaos vs law game.

Also imagine if you reversed the rules and allowed evil to convert good with diplomacy or maybe intimidate (by torture to drive the target mad). Or maybe allow a character to use diplomacy to move a target on the law / chaos axis.

It would make a great terror game if evil was converting good people in key positions to evil in an atempt to bring down a good empire. Take the person and capture him, convert him, and let him "excape". The party won't be able to trust anyone who has been in evil hands for very long, and you can't cure them except to reconvert them.

Though, on the note of working together. I think that any character with a high enough diplomacy check to pull off these stunts at high level would be able to convince most any other good character to help him. That is what the deplomacy skill does. The characters start off small and build up through a few kingdoms that they purge of evil top down. Them, once they have the resorces, start going after nuteral through diplomatic ties and then evil kingdoms through forced comunication. I could imagine a wizard witha tricked out diplomacy useing a spell of some kind to convert a evil king without the guy even realiseing he is being manipulated.

Then once the ball is roleing, then you try to hit the big evil guys, like beholders and dragons. Once you have turned all you can, then you just keep going, makeing more and more uber-diplomats to rule the world through a smile and a glass of wine.

Some evil will get away, but you can bust through any defences eventualy. Good stands a nice chance of being able to actualy win. There are no sure things, and evil would fight back, but it is actualy easier to defend from mindrape than someone talking to you in a AMF.

[Milskidasith]

The problem with your solution of aid another is that, in an AMF, a level 20 wizard is still more than capable of ripping the heads off of the people attempting to diplomance him, and even murdering the level 7 leader in hand to hand combat. Well, maybe not the leader, but the followers are dead as hell, and if its a gish, the leader dies and then... I dunno, but I'm pretty sure without their leader, the previously evil people won't stay good for long.

[Theodoriph]

Semi-Problem 1: Because you're making a diplomacy check:

Try Again
Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.

If you fail one check, you might not get another. Depends on what the DM rules.

Problem 2: The BoED states:

Most creatures described in the Monster Manual as “always evil” are either completely irredeemable or so intimately tied to evil that they are almost entirely hopeless.

According to this line, it would seem that always evil creatures will pretty much be always evil and cannot be saved. The section you're referencing:

Creatures whose alignments are listed as “always” a specific alignment, and characters who would lose class abilities if they changed alignment (including evil clerics and blackguards), gain a +4 bonus on their Will saves.

only applies to creatures who are always chaotic neutral, always neutral, or always lawful neutral. So creatures who are always evil are probably not redeemable unless a DM makes an exception for a specific one. You can still save non-always-evil creatures as you planned, but if you wanted to expand your industry, you'd run into a problem.


Semi-Problem 3: Outsiders with the Evil subtype are immune to redemption in this manner. So while the change is permanent wrt the NPCs, I'd imagine that only goes for their own internal behavior. They can always be corrupted by an outside source through diabolic trickery, temptation, or even a pact. This will hinder your efforts at full conversion.

Problem 4: You'll be set upon by the Abyss and the Nine Hells for stealing their souls. So if Sir Eldric is a level 7 diplomancer, he'll need protection.

[Flickerdart]

There's a book premised on this - "Villains by Necessity". It's rather quite good.

[lightningcat]

There's a book premised on this - "Villains by Necessity". It's rather quite good.

Thank you, I was trying to think of the name of that book.

[The Glyphstone]

If you fail one check, you might not get another. Depends on what the DM rules.

Now that he brings it up, this could possibly be the biggest weakness in the plan. Even assuming you can pump the DC to where only natural 20's save, it's concievable to rule that a single save permanently ruins attempts to convert that creature through diplomacy. I'm going to let someone who's good at math figure out the odds of getting a natural 20 once in 7 consecutive rolls (it's not 7/20, not sure what it is though).

[Milskidasith]

You have a ~70% chance of failing all seven saves. So at least 30% of people will be surviving full time, and anybody with a decent will save could just murder your guys in an AMF.

[Eurus]

Still, being able to turn ~70% of evil creatures (as long as they're either living or capable of language) to good is nothing to sneeze at.

[Tono]

"Brothers, I am sorry to say that X had to executed. His being was too far past that which could be saved, so for the greater good of all, he was put down."

[Milskidasith]

"Brothers, I am sorry to say that X had to executed. His being was too far past that which could be saved, so for the greater good of all, he was put down."

Which would work if followers, by leadership, were any threat to a level 20 evil character. Anybody with leadership would rapidly have no followers because the smart evil warrior, gish, or hell, even wizard (+10 BAB against a level 1 opponent is nothing to sneeze at), would absolutely murder them. After that, it's just mounting penalties to leadership score.

EDIT: Also, if this is a will save, every warblade worth his salt (and anybody who picks up an item, since it's a great cheap item) would just IHS the goodness away. I know that's kind of a cheesy use, but mind affecting diplomacy to forcibly change somebodies alignment seems like what you could remove with IHS.

[Fouredged Sword]

We need a class that can force an oponent to reroll a willsave if he gets a natural 20. There must be a class or luck feat that does that. Enough rerolls and that 30% starts to look a lot lower. The chance of getting 2 nat 20's in 7 rolls is very very small.

[Milskidasith]

We need a class that can force an oponent to reroll a willsave if he gets a natural 20. There must be a class or luck feat that does that.

Again, high level opponents in an AMF, which is the suggestion here (assuming you could catch high level opponents, which is a pretty bad assumption, and that they didn't have Invoke Magic) would simply beat your followers to death. The only way you'd be able to get this to work is if your guy could murder every level 20 evil character he came across, which is a rather hard assumption to make; if you can assume that, then you may as well get rid of the diplomancy shenanigans to begin with.

All this really proves, in the end, is that a high-ish level character, given enough resources and enough time, can convert low level characters that he could murder with a flick of the wrist.

[pingcode20]

You know, you don't really need to go to all that trouble to redeem someone.

I mean, you've already captured the Wizard 20 in an AMF field. The hard part is over.

Just half-heartedly talk to them to start the redemption process, then start stabbing them with high-DC poisons until they fail their save seven times in a row. (Best way would probably be along the lines of a Druid/Rogue with a pile of poison DC increasing feats and abilities)

After all, BoED only says they need to fail seven saves in a row during the process of redemption. Poisoning them might just be the most expedient way.

When you're the only evil one left, have someone start redeeming you, and have them cast charm person over and over, with you voluntarily failing the save each time.

The best part is if you use a non-constitution ability damaging attack, which means the wizard will probably be helpless in short order.

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think it works that way. Charming is right out in the rules as a no go, and I think you actualy have to fail the deplomacy will save, not just any save.

On the other hand a ravage that damages wisdom would help lower a tough save.

And a level 20 wizard in a AMF cold be betten by 10-20 mid level fighters, expecialy if they are disarm / AoO speced. The concept is that you use diplomacy to gather an overwhelming force at your disposal. Ether that or just wish him into a greased (as in non magic grease) pit that is 20ft deep and fire blunt arrows at him until he passes out.

Wish is great for moveing anyone from anywhere to anywhere, so you use that as your transportation method for high level magic users. Circle magic and heighten can make the save DC, if there was one, so stupidly high that noone could save but for a nat 20.

[Chambers]

Milskidasith: I think you're giving the AMF Wizard 20 too much credit here. Most of his/her feats will probably be magic related (metamagic and such), not combat feats. Those followers can pile on with Aid Another to give, in this case, signifcant bonuses against the No-Magic Wizard.

Figure 8 followers surrounded the Wizard, and those 8 followers have followers surrounding them. Each check gives a +2 bonus to either Attack or Armor Class, so each of the innermost followers would have a hefty bonus (somewhere around +10-+14, not sure on how exactly the squares will break down.) They all add the Attack bonus to touch attacks to start a grapple and dogpile the snot out of the Wizard.

[Milskidasith]

Milskidasith: I think you're giving the AMF Wizard 20 too much credit here. Most of his/her feats will probably be magic related (metamagic and such), not combat feats. Those followers can pile on with Aid Another to give, in this case, signifcant bonuses against the No-Magic Wizard.

Figure 8 followers surrounded the Wizard, and those 8 followers have followers surrounding them. Each check gives a +2 bonus to either Attack or Armor Class, so each of the innermost followers would have a hefty bonus (somewhere around +10-+14, not sure on how exactly the squares will break down.) They all add the Attack bonus to touch attacks to start a grapple and dogpile the snot out of the Wizard.

That assumes you send all the people in at once, which is a bit odd, and assumes the Wizard wouldn't just, say, beat somebody up at the door. Or that he isn't a gish/fighter. Or that he didn't have an Invoke Magic'd Fireball, which would kill all their level one asses no problem. EDIT: Also, Aid Another in combat requires that all the people using Aid Another can attack the Wizard; the amount of squares you'd have, assuming they used reach weapons, would be eight around the wizard, and then an additional 16 around that, which would be, for the innermost characters, a +2 attack and +2 AC bonus each; still not enough to match the wizard and beat him up. Aid Another also has a (vague) restriction on how you could have a max for people helping out, and I'm pretty sure that, while it's not strict RAW, you can't have more people using Aid Another on a grapple check than can legally be in a grapple with one creature, so you'd only get a +8 or so bonus there, too. Enough to possibly take down the wizard, assuming he's in there and doesn't fry everybody, but not enough to guarantee that you aren't taking leadership penalties every time you do so.

EDIT: Fouredged, your assumption is pretty bad; a level 20 wizard would have pretty easy ways to avoid your teleportation effect, such as, of course, having his real body dimension locked on his home plane (which you can't enter), just flat out teleporting out (a pit? For level 20?), Invoke Magicing out, or just using the same Wish tactics to move him somewhere else while he moved you into the sun.

Also, you cannot assume you have plentiful mid level fighter followers. If you want to argue a "By RAW, I can do X" thing, you can't assume "Oh, I got a bunch of extra mid level followers." You'd have to be able to get a level 20 wizard with just your base followers, and those aren't particularly likely to survive 20d6 of damage.