Defense against psionics?

[Alejandro]

Hello all,

I have reason to suspect that my party is soon going to be attacked by psionics using enemies. We are in a giant dead magic area and have no magic, but psionics still works.

My character owns a Ring of Mind Shielding that still works in this dead magic area (long story.) I have read the description of the ring (immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment) but know nothing about psionics, or whether there are any special notes or errata elsewhere about the ring vs. psionics.

So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

[Dragon Elite]

It depends. Some DMs use the psionic-magic transparency to mean SR 13=PR 13. So, depending on your DM, you either are shielded from powers like Mind probe and Mind thrust, or it has no effect whatsoever.
Ask you DM.

[Starbuck_II]

Hello all,

I have reason to suspect that my party is soon going to be attacked by psionics using enemies. We are in a giant dead magic area and have no magic, but psionics still works.

My character owns a Ring of Mind Shielding that still works in this dead magic area (long story.) I have read the description of the ring (immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment) but know nothing about psionics, or whether there are any special notes or errata elsewhere about the ring vs. psionics.

So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

No, it only prevents things undetectable alignment (1st lv Bard, Pal, etc) works against. As well as thought reading and lie detection.

So no benefit unless they are using those type of effects.

If the ring protected like Mind blank spell (then it would stop psionic mind affecting powers). But currently the ring isn't helpful unless you are preventing mind reading.

Think of it like this: if the ring helps versus spells than it protects versus powers.

[Snake-Aes]

That's a very specific dead magic zone. How are you guys doing the transparency? Usually there's no difference between psionic and magic, so spell resistance, antimagic and the like affect psionics equally. If that is how you are treating it, then you are immune to equivalent powers.

[Alejandro]

Shadow Weave magic and magic items work in the dead magic zone. My character paid for a limited wish to be able to use shadow weave magic items without getting hurt. I then captured a shadow weave ring of mind shielding.

I have no idea how the GM does it. Psionics has never appeared in the campaign before in PC or NPC hands (minds?)

However, hints have been dropped that there are some psionicists now enjoying the fact that they can beat on Weave using casters in their area with their full psionic power, and the casters have very little to respond in kind with. (I am a duelist character and don't cast spells to begin with, I plan on simply closing with and skewering the psionicists.)

[Snake-Aes]

You're gonna have to ask your dm.

[elonin]

Psions are like wizards in at least one important sense. If you can get the drop on them their low hit points make them a squishy target.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psions are like wizards in at least one important sense. If you can get the drop on them their low hit points make them a squishy target.

Assuming they don't take the precaution of always having vigor and share pain up, and it's easy enough to have them up all day after about level 5 or so, if you really want to.

[Prime32]

Psionics don't attack your mind by default, so mental protection will only help against some powers.

[Optimystik]

So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

No, just the mind-reading ones as Starbuck said. Psionics can do many things that arcane magic can do, including energy blasts, battlefield control and form changing, that don't involve attacking your mind directly.

It depends. Some DMs use the psionic-magic transparency to mean SR 13=PR 13.

That's exactly what transparency means. Any DM not allowing that, is using partial transparency or no transparency.

However, hints have been dropped that there are some psionicists now enjoying the fact that they can beat on Weave using casters in their area with their full psionic power, and the casters have very little to respond in kind with. (I am a duelist character and don't cast spells to begin with, I plan on simply closing with and skewering the psionicists.)

In Faerun, though Psionics does not come from the Weave, they still use the Weave for transmittal to make their effects known in the world. So psionics should not work in Dead magic areas. This is spelled out on page 55 of the XPH (and the SRD,) so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

[IdleMuse]

so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

While I understand what you're trying to say here, that sounds like a good way to piss your DM off; if he's decided how Psionics and the Weave interact in 'his' Faerun, showing him evidence to the contrary isn't really going to help. Obviously, if you do this in the right way, everything with be fine and dandy, as it will if you have an easygoing DM, but i've seen situations like that with a grumpy DM and a socially-inept player devolve into an arguement and a lot of bad feeling between the DM and the player party. We didn't get a session that day.

I agree with the general above statement though, if you do want to understand how to defend yourself, your DM is the final arbitrator of how any interaction works at all in the world, and you need to ask him. Be careful not to metagame however; if it's only a out-of-character hint you have that you'll be going up against Psionics, it would seem rather suspicious for your characters to start arming up against them.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In Faerun, psionics and magic interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic however...

In Faerun, though Psionics does not come from the Weave, they still use the Weave for transmittal to make their effects known in the world. So psionics should not work in Dead magic areas. This is spelled out on page 55 of the XPH (and the SRD,) so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

I think your the one whose confused, psionics does not draw up on the weave period, there is no using it for transmittal effects, unless you can tell me where its written.
Thankfully Wizards posted the excerpt from PgtF which says exactly how psionics work in Faerun and by all appearances the OP DM read it.

Psionics and the Weave

Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerûn's Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerûn.

While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature. Spells such as detect magic can also detect psionic abilities at work, and spells such as dispel magic or antimagic shell can negate, suppress, or completely cancel psionic manifestations. In Faerûn, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic

So there you have it, psionics do not tap into or use the weave in anyway. So
just like a shadow weave user they can use their powers in a dead magic zone where the weave no loneger exists. In faerun 99% of the time whn they say dead magic zone. They just mean an area where the weave doesn't exist. So it only effects weave users.

[Optimystik]

So there you have it, psionics do not tap into or use the weave in anyway. So
just like a shadow weave user they can use their powers in a dead magic zone where the weave no longer exists.

It is you who are mistaken. From the XPH and SRD:

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

While I understand what you're trying to say here, that sounds like a good way to piss your DM off; if he's decided how Psionics and the Weave interact in 'his' Faerun, showing him evidence to the contrary isn't really going to help.

That would be the case if his DM is specifically houseruling/handwaving the status quo away. But some DMs actually don't know these rules. A simple "I'm willing to play it your way, but were you aware that this is the way it actually is?" can illuminate matters without being pushy.

In short, his DM may simply be mistaken on how dead magic and psionics interact.

[Lord Vukodlak]

{Scrubbed}

[Optimystik]

Do you know anything about faerun, have you read a single forgotten realms campaign book.

I do, and I have.

The dead magic areas described in the SRD are not the same as the one commonly used in faerun. As I've already stated in faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave no longer exists.

Whatever differences you perceive are irrelevant. By RAW, psionics does not work inside them. Both you and the OP's DM are free to houserule otherwise, but that is the default state.

[Nero24200]

I do agree that in a dead magic zone psionics shouldn't work. Theres a difference between Dead Magic zones and Anti-Magic zones - One is set-up to prevent magic from funcitoning properly, the other is a region where no magic exists.

Personally, I doesn't strike me as particularly fun for a DM to throw psionics at you in a dead magic zone with psionics still working fine. Unless psionics are as common in your games as other forms of magic, it's not really fair to use the Psionics is Different rule, since there was no pretense for your party to carry anti-psionic equipment or learn anti-psionic abilities.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I do, and I have.
Whatever differences you perceive are irrelevant. By RAW, psionics does not work inside them. Both you and the OP's DM are free to houserule otherwise, but that is the default state.

Differences I perceive? they are different, how does shadow weave magic work in a faerun dead magic zone if they aren't different?

In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist which is why its dead magic. Its not house ruling to say a power that doesn't draw upon the weave isn't effected by its abstinence its common sense. Shadow Weave users can still use their magic in dead magic[weave magic] zones because they don't draw upon the weave.

Now a dead magic zone that effected BOTH shadow weave and regular weave users. Yeah that should work on psionics. But we aren't talking about that kind of area were talking about a zone that cuts off only one source of power.

Its not house ruling its 1=1. Or simply reading why things work the way they do.

Having the same name does NOT make it the same thing. I know three people named Chris they are all quite different. The effects descriptions are clearly different.
Dead Magic SRD=No magic exists
Dead Magic Zone Faerun=No weave magic exists, which is why shadow weave magic still works.

So really explain how psions are effected by the weave using RAW. Keeping in mind that PgTf already stated they aren't.

I do agree that in a dead magic zone psionics shouldn't work. Theres a difference between Dead Magic zones and Anti-Magic zones - One is set-up to prevent magic from functioning properly, the other is a region where no magic exists.

I'll explain it to you as well.
In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist. Shadow Weave users maintain their full power in such areas because they draw magic from a different source that still exists in that area.

So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

[Dr.Epic]

Great axe: the best defense you can have as a barbarian.

[Nero24200]

I'll explain it to you as well.
In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist. Shadow Weave users maintain their full power in such areas because they draw magic from a different source that still exists in that area.

So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

I know what a Dead Magic zone is in Faerun. Psionics are not addressed in the Forgotten Realms rulebook though, so any varitation from the XPH is simply a houserule. Despite different origins, psionics is still considered a form of "magic", hence why magic/psionic transparacy is the default assumption in the XPH.

[Optimystik]

So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

The only difference between psionics and magic in Faerun is that Mystra and Shar cannot regulate psionic powers. That has nothing to do with dead magic zones.

From your own quote:

In Faerûn, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic.

Dead magic interacts with magic by not allowing it to function. The same is true of psionics.

If that seems senseless, blame the Faerun designers.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The only difference between psionics and magic in Faerun is that Mystra and Shar cannot regulate psionic powers. That has nothing to do with dead magic zones..

Yes it does, Mystra and Shar can regulate magic users by cutting them off from the weave or shadow weave. They can't do anything to psionics because they don't use the weave.

Dead magic isn't magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is magic, doesn't quite apply unless that dead magic works on everything which in this case it doesn't

Your also ignoring the line.
"While psionics does not require the Weave to function"
How does lack of weave effect a psionic creature then?

I know what a Dead Magic zone is in Faerun. Psionics are not addressed in the Forgotten Realms rulebook though, so any varitation from the XPH is simply a houserule. Despite different origins, psionics is still considered a form of "magic", hence why magic/psionic transparacy is the default assumption in the XPH.

Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.
So explain how a non-weave user is effected by a dead weave zone.

[Prime32]

I haven't played much in FR, but I've read novels where psionics kept working when the Weave was damaged.

[Optimystik]

Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.

Do you have a quote that actually says PGtF dead magic zones are different from XPH dead magic zones?

And why, under your explanation, does an antimagic field suppress psionics then?

[Ranos]

The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over.

At best, OP could ask his DM to know the exact details of the psionic transparency in this setting and make sure the DM is doing this voluntarily, not out of a mistaken belief that this is the default. If not, and there's no transparency, he'll have to get a few nice universal items to protect himself.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes it does, Mystra and Shar can regulate magic users by cutting them off from the weave or shadow weave. They can't do anything to psionics because they don't use the weave.

Dead magic isn't magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is magic, doesn't quite apply unless that dead magic works on everything which in this case it doesn't

Your also ignoring the line.
"While psionics does not require the Weave to function"
How does lack of weave effect a psionic creature then?



Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.
So explain how a non-weave user is effected by a dead weave zone.

Actually, Psionics create their own personal weave so they use neither shadow weave or mystras'.

[Optimystik]

The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over. At best, OP could ask his DM to know the exact details of the psionic transparency in this setting, make sure the DM is doing this voluntarily, not out of a mistaken belief that this is the default, then, if not, get a few nice universal items to protect himself.

That's precisely why I brought it up. It could be an honest mistake.

He may handwave/dismiss it in the name of his plot anyway of course, but that's a different situation - one that mandates more leeway on the challenge, since he's already breaking the rules to make it work.

Or he might change his mind about the ambush - I don't honestly expect this outcome, but it's possible.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Do you have a quote that actually says PGtF dead magic zones are different from XPH dead magic zones?

And why, under your explanation, does an antimagic field suppress psionics then?

Its not PgtF dead magic zones. Its simply faerun dead magic zones.

The only dead magic zone in the SRD is the planar trait, where no magic at all functions. Their is no explanation as to the why it simply is, This is what the XPH refers to and is the kind of zone would apply to everything.

A dead magic zone is also not magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is a magic that suppresses magic. Hence it works.

In Faerun however they give you a why for their dead magic zones, which is quite important

In The forgotten realms campaign setting page 55, the first line under the title dead magic says that in some areas of Toril the weave is absent all together. It goes on to describe some of the effects, such if you walk into a dead magic zone you can feel the lack of magic.

So right their is a difference its not described as an area lacking all magic but lacking the weave. But it otherwise functions like a dead magic zone at least to weave users.
Shadow weave users get to ignore disruptions in the weave because they don't use it this includes wild magic zone as well. They also can't sense a dead magic zone because they aren't tied to it.

Now psionics in faerun weren't addressed until years later in PgtF. Where it says they don't draw upon the weave or the shadow weave. Logic should dictate that if a shadow weave user gets to ignore a given disruption of the weave because they don't use it. Psionics should also ignore such disruptions.

The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over.

It is worth arguing over if you read how dead magic zones in faerun work.

[Snake-Aes]

Now psionics in faerun weren't addressed until years later in PgtF. But logic should dictate if you don't draw power from the weave you shouldn't be effected by its disruptions just as shadow weave users aren't.

Psionic Transparency says psionic effects are also magical effects. It includes the line "Dead magic is also Dead psionics".

It just makes sense that psionics, in Faerun, also tap from the Weave. It's unnecessary pedantry to assume otherwise if there is psionic-magic transparency in effect.

[Optimystik]

A dead magic zone is also not magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is a magic that suppresses magic. Hence it works.

FRCS says they are identical, minus the Shadow Weave bit.

A dead magic zone functions in most respects as an antimagic field spell, except it does not impede the spells or spell-like abilities of Shadow Weave users, nor does it interfere with the operation of Shadow Weave magic items.

By RAW, psionics are no exception.
As I said in the beginning, making that exception is an acceptable houserule. There is nothing wrong with making houserules.

[Fax Celestis]

[calling Opti an idiot]

Dude, play nice.