Tome of Magic - Shadow Magic Question

[dragonfan6490]

Howdy fellow playgrounders!

So me and one of my friends are talking about his next character for a game I'm running, and he wants to use the Tome of Magic, notably shadow magic. Now I don't know anything about shadow magic, so you can understand my skepticism. He has the book and I borrowed it from him, so I'm going to be learning about it, but my time is fairly limited right now.

So what I want to know, is what ya'll think of Shadow Magic. Is it over powered? Is it very different from magic or psionics? How does it work?

Thanks in advance!

[senrath]

If I'm remembering correctly, it's actually underpowered. Compared to most full casters, shadow magic users are quite weak.

[The Rose Dragon]

There are some fixes, most notably by the writer of the Shadow Magic chapter, for the shadowcaster. Try and get your hands on one of them to make the shadowcaster a bit more powerful and useful (yes, as a DM).

[Oslecamo]

It's not stronger than magic.

Low level shaddowcasters are somewhat weak because of the really low of "spells" they have, both in uses per day and known.

Medium-high level shaddowcasters however are more than capable to hold their own.

It's a somewhat complex system as you've got diferent "schools" and in order to learn the best spells on a school you need to learn the weaker ones on them.

Another thing it's that they start by using their "spells" as actual magic, but as they gain levels their weaker "spells" can be used more times per day and become SLAs and eventually supernatural abilities.

Don't trust too much all the people saying it suckorz, that only applies to the early levels. It's however fairly complex to use and besides the some cool "spells" they really don't add anything new compared to regular spellcasters besides the fact that they become able to use their weaker spells as SLAs and supernatural abilities.

[senrath]

Don't believe all the people saying it suckorz, that only applies to the early levels. It's however fairly complex to use and besides the some cool "spells" they really don't add anything new compared to regular spellcasters besides the fact that they become able to use their weaker spells as SLAs and supernatural abilities.

I'm not saying it sucks, just that it's underwhelming. Also that it won't (shouldn't) break anything if you allow it in.

[DragoonWraith]

I'm unconvinced that it's especially good at high levels. Playable, certainly, but not particularly good. Where normal casters get to a point where they're never really worried about running out of spells in a given day, the Shadowcaster never does. That might be a good thing (certainly seems like it was intended in the case of regular casters), but it doesn't jive well with the things that high level casters are supposed to be able to do.

But certainly, at low levels, the Shadowcaster quickly turns into a crossbowman with really low HP and BAB. It's not pretty.

The author has some fixes here, but I don't think they go far enough, personally.

[Oslecamo]

I'm not saying it sucks, just that it's underwhelming. Also that it won't (shouldn't) break anything if you allow it in.

Well, compared to fullcasters on fullpower everything is underwhelming. That the shaddowcaster has a power level of 8999 instead of limitless infinite is a good thing in my book.

The fix on the post above is a good idea however that helps them a lot at the low levels.

[Boci]

Well, compared to fullcasters on fullpower everything is underwhelming. That the shaddowcaster has a power level of 8999 instead of limitless infinite is a good thing in my book.

True, but it is a relevant consideration if there are full casters in the group.

[Draz74]

My biggest problem with the Shadowcaster is how uneven its advancement is. It gains huge amounts of power at Levels 7 and 13. The rest of its level gains are mostly underwhelming.

Even at Level 7 or 13 I don't think it's really an overpowered class; just decent. It's just really terrible at Level 6 or Level 12.

[Optimystik]

Basically, they combine the worst aspects of generalist wizards and sorcerers - limited spells known from the latter, and limited spells/day from the former. And that gets tacked on top of being MAD, and ridiculous restrictions like the Path completion requirement.

Mouse's fixes (his real name, Ari Marmell, you can see at the bottom of your Tome of Magic copy) go a long way toward correcting these. Among them, he puts bonus mysteries and save DCs on the same stat, giving them a lot more staying power. He also eliminates the Path completion requirement and allows you to swap out Mysteries known like a sorcerer can swap out spells.

Since this is a decent Shadowcaster thread, I was wondering - what tier would the Shadowcaster be in (both before and after Ari's fixes?)

[gbprime]

It's flavorful and different, but it lacks staying power. At low levels, they have as many as 6 powers they can use once each per day. At medium levels, they triple this... their original low level stuff usable twice per day and the new stuff once per day each. At high levels, same thing... low level stuff (nearly worthless at this point) 3 per day per power, 2 per day for the medium level stuff, and 1 per day per power that approximates a 7th to 9th level effect.

In essence, they are more powerful than a warlock, but have a short battery life. if you are going to have one as a primary arcane caster in your campaign, you would be well advised to look at the Noctumancer PrC in the book. With an early-entry qualification, this results (at 20th level) in Shadowcaster 19 / Wizard 11. The wizard spells get the caster the utility stuff he'll be needing, and with a well spent reserve feat, the battery life he's so desperately missing.

[Optimystik]

In essence, they are more powerful than a warlock, but have a short battery life. if you are going to have one as a primary arcane caster in your campaign, you would be well advised to look at the Noctumancer PrC in the book. With an early-entry qualification, this results (at 20th level) in Shadowcaster 19 / Wizard 11. The wizard spells get the caster the utility stuff he'll be needing, and with a well spent reserve feat, the battery life he's so desperately missing.

Better yet, recall that Shadowcasters can qualify for either side of Mystic Theurge (ToM pg. 117). This means that a Wiz 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 6 casts as a Wizard 17 and a Shadowcaster 19, for 9th-level powers on both sides.

[gbprime]

Better yet, recall that Shadowcasters can qualify for either side of Mystic Theurge (ToM pg. 117). This means that a Wiz 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 6 casts as a Wizard 17 and a Shadowcaster 19, for 9th-level powers on both sides.

...

I had totally overlooked that. Wow. okay, I need to adjust a player's planned progression accordingly.

Thanks.

[Starbuck_II]

A note: taking a mystery twice doubles uses/day.

So a supernatural taken twice (usually 3/day)= 6/day.

[Lans]

Since this is a decent Shadowcaster thread, I was wondering - what tier would the Shadowcaster be in (both before and after Ari's fixes?)

I think high tier 4 low tier 3 before the fix, and the fix adds half a tier so low-mid 3

[Draz74]

I think high tier 4 low tier 3 before the fix, and the fix adds half a tier so low-mid 3

That sounds reasonable overall. Again, though, I'd say it varies at least a full tier between Level 6 and 7, or between Level 12 and 13.

[Zombieboots]

Three new Paths for Shadowcaster.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

It's not great but it's the only other support they get outside of ToM.

[The Shadowmind]

Depending on the level the character is starting at I might recommend the Master of Shadow prestige class from the same book.
It is a 9/10 caster class(lose on first level) than is able to be entered as the 6th level, that replaces the shadow familiar with a medium(then large at 3rd leve)cannon-fodder shadow elemental, that advances in HD as you level, as well as being replaceable in a 24 hours. The master's bidding ability is not good in combat till at least 5th level when it become a move action, then becomes decent when it becomes a swift action at tenth.

[peacenlove]

Three new Paths for Shadowcaster.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

It's not great but it's the only other support they get outside of ToM.

From this article the initiate path and Grasping Shadows are one of the best mysteries out there. Also Black Labyrinth, sooo much fun

Also they get this support (mostly fluff for Faerun though)

Also DO NOT take metashadow feats, instead rely on the metashadow rods.

[gorfnab]

Here is the cliff notes on how shadowcasters work

Spoiler

Show

Level - Casting ability
1st - Fundamentals (basically cantrips) function as Supernatural Abilities, Apprentice Mysteries cast as arcane spells (somatic components, arcane spell failure, etc...pick up Still Mystery if you want to wear armor)
7th - Apprentice Mysteries function as Spell Like Abilities, Initiate Mysteries cast as arcane spells
13th - Apprentice Mysteries function as Supernatural Abilities, Initiate Mysteries function as Spell Like Abilities, Master Mysteries cast as arcane spells

When Mysteries are cast as arcane spells you can cast each of them 1/day
When Mysteries become Spell Like Abilities you can use each of them 2/day
When Mysteries become Supernatural Abilities you can use each of them 3/day

At 1st level you know 3 Fundamentals and 1 Mystery.
You gain 1 Mystery known at every level (similar to how a Psychic Warrior and its Powers Known) and at 4th level and every 4 levels after you learn an additional Fundamental.
At 14th level+ Fundamentals can be used at will.
You get bonus feats, chosen from a specific list, equal to half the total number of paths you have access to rounded down (I prefer to use the author's fix and go with whenever you complete a path you gain a bonus feat).
The level of Mysteries you can cast is equal to the same level of Wizard and what level of spells they can cast (ie. a 5th level Wizard can cast 3rd level spells, a 5th level Shadowcaster can cast 3rd level Mysteries).

For races I recommend Whisper Gnome (RoS) especially with the Magic in the Blood (PGtF) feat for more versatility at low levels, especially 1st and 2nd.
A level of Rogue, taken at first level before going into shadowcaster, with the Craven (CoR) feat is an okay idea for the skill points and for the sneak attack damage which can be added onto mysteries like Arrow of Dusk and Umbral Touch.

[Gralamin]

I've honestly found playing a shadowcaster to be boring - most of the time you don't have anything to do. A nice little fix for this is allowing them to recharge mysteries in a path as a full round action. In addition, making Fundamentals at-will is, in my opinion a necessary change.

I have, however, never of thought of Eldritch Theurging Shadowcaster - I should give that a shot.

[Morph Bark]

There are some fixes, most notably by the writer of the Shadow Magic chapter, for the shadowcaster. Try and get your hands on one of them to make the shadowcaster a bit more powerful and useful (yes, as a DM).

Really? Is that in the errata or presented somewhere else?

[gorfnab]

Really? Is that in the errata or presented somewhere else?

Sadly it's not in the errata
Shadowcaster fixes by Mouseferatu (Ari Marmell)