Fallen Paladins

[Wardog]

Just about all the discussions I've ever seen about fallen paladins have assumed thet they would either want to atone and regain their paladinhood, or else they become completely corrupted and become a blackguard or similar, possibly with special bonuses from the dark powers for renouncing everything they once stood for.

But what happens if a fallen paladin wants to do neither?

For example, if he decided that a lawful alignment gets in the way of doing good, and adopts a NG philosophy.

Is he then just stuck as a sub-standard fighter? Or is there something he can do to regain some effectiveness (e.g. "retraining" and converting his paladin levels to fighter or cleric levels)?

[Jjeinn-tae]

If the Paladin goes Chaotic, Holy Liberator is an option. I don't know how good the class is, but your paladin and Holy Liberator level stack for the smiting and spell casting abilities of the holy liberator.

[Snake-Aes]

Just about all the discussions I've ever seen about fallen paladins have assumed thet they would either want to atone and regain their paladinhood, or else they become completely corrupted and become a blackguard or similar, possibly with special bonuses from the dark powers for renouncing everything they once stood for.

But what happens if a fallen paladin wants to do neither?

For example, if he decided that a lawful alignment gets in the way of doing good, and adopts a NG philosophy.

Is he then just stuck as a sub-standard fighter? Or is there something he can do to regain some effectiveness (e.g. "retraining" and converting his paladin levels to fighter or cleric levels)?

Well, it's mostly up to the player and the dm. Leaving him as a fighter without bonus feats while he is both unrepentant and unwilling to retire is kinda wasteful. Alternative paladins? Will he pursue a power not backed by flimsy deities? Will he pursue a deity or philosophy closer to what he believes in?

He could retrain as a cleric. He could become a paladin of another alignment. He could retrain as another martial class. Really, it's up to you guys.

[Starbuck_II]

Just about all the discussions I've ever seen about fallen paladins have assumed thet they would either want to atone and regain their paladinhood, or else they become completely corrupted and become a blackguard or similar, possibly with special bonuses from the dark powers for renouncing everything they once stood for.

But what happens if a fallen paladin wants to do neither?

For example, if he decided that a lawful alignment gets in the way of doing good, and adopts a NG philosophy.

Is he then just stuck as a sub-standard fighter? Or is there something he can do to regain some effectiveness (e.g. "retraining" and converting his paladin levels to fighter or cleric levels)?

Could be a Shadowbane Inquisitor. You'd need to keep LG (but you can be fallen and still be one).
Granted, you only stack with blackguard for abilities.

[tcrudisi]

I'm not sure about NG, but I know there are the alternate pally's from Unearthed Arcana that are CG, LE and CE. If you went to one of those alignments, I could see an atonement allowing you to become that type of paladin instead.

I can't remember what they are called other than the LE one is called a Paladin of Tyranny.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have always thought we needed 8 or 9 paladin base classes, not just 4. TN may or may not need one, as I am not sure how that would work. I would allow a paladin to use atonement to ether return to his first alignment or change to another and switch all relevent class abilities to that alignment paladin.

[Snake-Aes]

Tyranny, Slaughter, Freedom. My group's take on paladins takes it a step further and brings them more in line to a "cleric, but with more spanking and less casting".

[Master_Rahl22]

I agree with the "Cleric but with less casting" outlook on Paladins. Not to start an edition war, but 4E includes this, along with completely doing away with alignment as a mechanical thing. It's purely fluff now, which I think is great.

[Dr.Epic]

For example, if he decided that a lawful alignment gets in the way of doing good, and adopts a NG philosophy.

They're stressing the lawful and not the good. Unless your neutral, good or evil should be the part of the alignment one focuses on.

[DabblerWizard]

I can't speak to the 3.5 mechanics associated with fallen paladin that don't wish to regain their LG status.

However, I think the RP value for this kind of character, can be entirely satisfying.

How they turn out can have something to do with why they fell, whether because they committed an "evil" act, and "unlawful" act, both at once, or "neither" and fell because of some in-game deity-with-tummy-ache technicality.

- Consider a paladin with a twisted sense of "benevolence". He/She believes that when "ends justify means", it becomes okay to commit "evil" acts as long as there is a "good" outcome.

- Now compare the above paladin with one that views "law" very abstractly. This ex-paladin believes that there are universal / "natural laws" that supersede the laws put down by mortal rulers, or laws upheld by deities, perhaps.

The above two ex-paladins will find the LG state of mind entirely untenable for different reasons... and there is much RP joy to be found with their varying perspectives and potential moral development over time.

[KillianHawkeye]

Tyranny, Slaughter, Freedom.

And I believe the standard PHB Paladin is referred to as the Paladin of Justice.

[Coidzor]

Is he then just stuck as a sub-standard fighter? Or is there something he can do to regain some effectiveness (e.g. "retraining" and converting his paladin levels to fighter or cleric levels)?

Not really. I don't know any way to get that before level 7. And it would actually be 8 for a Favored Soul. You could however use the PHBII rebuilding option to switch out 3 favored soul levels for Morninglord levels at ChL 15.

Ahh, multiquote.

And I believe the standard PHB Paladin is referred to as the Paladin of Justice.

I'm thinking Honor myself.

[arrowhen]

I'm proud to say that as a DM, I've never made a Paladin "fall".

It's a stupid, pointless holdover from AD&D where the Paladin was ridiculously more powerful than the Fighter and that edition's notion of "balance" was to make the DM present the overpowered class with impossible choices in order to strip them of their powers and force the rest of the party to join them in a lame side quest to get them back.

I haven't DM-ed for a whole lot of Paladins, probably because I've made it clear up front that, no, we're not going to base a huge chunk of this campaign around "Waah! I fell from grace and now I need to redeem myself!" or "Hah! I fell from grace and now I'm going to be a kick-ass Anti-Paladin Blackguard!" Those who chose to play Paladins because they were interested in the class itself, rather than the class as a vessel for garnering an unwarranted share of the attention, however, seemed to appreciate my approach to Paladinhood as being just another class.

[Greymane]

We've only had a Paladin once, but they didn't fall. Well, not really. She took the sins of a distant cousin (Paladin was an Aasimar, cousin was a Tiefling. The family tree diverted at one point into two families when a succubus decided to have a little fun seducing one of the men along the way.) upon herself, and willingly gave up her powers for a time until she and this cousin could be redeemed.

It worked out just fine.

That said, if a paladin 'fell', and thought being lawful was getting in the way, and wanted to be more good than lawful, I'd probably want the paladin in question to do some soul-searching. Maybe find a new deity. If the church they're in allows NG Cleric alignments, I wouldn't see anything wrong with tossing the paladin an Atonement, letting them get their new alignment, and get their powers back. Just minus anything that requires being lawful, obviously.

Can I interest you in the Grey Guard? In Complete Scoundrel?

[Gralamin]

I'm thinking Honor myself.

By RAW, it is honor.

(If you use these versions of the paladin class, you might consider designating the standard paladin as the "paladin of honor" to differentiate it from the variants.)

[Leon]

I have always thought we needed 8 or 9 paladin base classes, not just 4. TN may or may not need one, as I am not sure how that would work. I would allow a paladin to use atonement to ether return to his first alignment or change to another and switch all relevent class abilities to that alignment paladin.

I recall a Dragon mag that had something with 9 Alignment based paladin classes - I think it may have been 310.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm thinking Honor myself.

By RAW, it is honor.

Oops, my mistake. I wonder where I got the idea it was Justice?

[Snake-Aes]

I'm proud to say that as a DM, I've never made a Paladin "fall".

It's a stupid, pointless holdover from AD&D where the Paladin was ridiculously more powerful than the Fighter and that edition's notion of "balance" was to make the DM present the overpowered class with impossible choices in order to strip them of their powers and force the rest of the party to join them in a lame side quest to get them back.

I haven't DM-ed for a whole lot of Paladins, probably because I've made it clear up front that, no, we're not going to base a huge chunk of this campaign around "Waah! I fell from grace and now I need to redeem myself!" or "Hah! I fell from grace and now I'm going to be a kick-ass Anti-Paladin Blackguard!" Those who chose to play Paladins because they were interested in the class itself, rather than the class as a vessel for garnering an unwarranted share of the attention, however, seemed to appreciate my approach to Paladinhood as being just another class.

You are entitled your opinion, but that's not common here. Paladins are the guys that set themselves to a standard to bitchin high they can't keep it up themselves uninterruptedly. That fluff has value by itself and it is not "obligatory", nor are the only options after falling "redeem" and "blackguard". But I don't think you'd let the opportunity to see those rise.

[Vizzerdrix]

Can I interest you in the Grey Guard? In Complete Scoundrel?

+1

My message is NOT too short! And even if it was it's not the size of the message that counts. sniff 8*(

[Snake-Aes]

+1

My message is NOT too short! And even if it was it's not the size of the message that counts. sniff 8*(

Won't do. the OP said he fell and doesn't believe in the paladin ideals anymore.
Grey Guards are the opposite. They are people so damn in love with the ideals of the paladin's morals that they are willing to dirty themselves to uphold them.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would look hard at that to see if your paladin valued his own ideals over the vows he made, and thus is willing to dirty himself to do generic good, rather than be forced to hold the line as LG with no leway.

[Snake-Aes]

I have absolutely no idea what you tried to say there.

[hamishspence]

I recall a Dragon mag that had something with 9 Alignment based paladin classes - I think it may have been 310.

its split over two issues- the 5 non-evil variants were in 310, the 3 evil ones were in 312.

And the LG one is the standard paladin.

[Coidzor]

You are entitled your opinion, but that's not common here. Paladins are the guys that set themselves to a standard to bitchin high they can't keep it up themselves uninterruptedly. That fluff has value by itself and it is not "obligatory", nor are the only options after falling "redeem" and "blackguard". But I don't think you'd let the opportunity to see those rise.

I think part of the problem is with audience expectations. We don't really want to get invested in the character of paladins due to them probably going to A. end up like Miko was when she was alive or B. end up like well, for back of a better comparison Job, a whipping boy of the gods and the setting and the DM for no apparent reason.

Sure, they could be just another character but then you run into the other side of ignoring their fluff completely.*

So basically we either hate them preemptively or are so apathetic that we just try to ignore them and hope we don't have to spend entire story arcs on them and solely them.

*

Spoiler

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Oddly enough, I've never run into any paladins while looking around online that actually are mechanically the templars of their deities that everyone seems to wish they were. Gen a bloody code of contact and require them to not only wholly emulate their patron's alignment, but also regularly consult their W.W.W.J.D. phylacteries of faithfulness bracelets already.

[hamishspence]

In the Forgotten Realms novel Soldiers of Ice, one of the main chaarcters is a paladin who, after his deity died during the Avatar crisis, "felt free and enjoyed his freedom"- called Vilhelm.

So when his deity (Torm) was brought back- he didn't notice- since he'd slipped away from paladinhood.

He's still LG, and retains much of his old paladin attitude toward good and evil- he just doesn't have paladin powers. He does have full fighter powers though, since he effectively replaced paladin levels with fighter levels. This is a 2nd ed character.