[3.5]Buying Land

[PapaNachos]

For a campaign I'm in my character would like to purchase some land for personal used. However I have no idea how to figure out how much it would cost for a plot of land (size undetermined) and any building that would be located on it.

[PId6]

It costs the price of arranging a meeting with the current owner of the land + the price of one casting of Dominate Person.

[Dr.Epic]

For a campaign I'm in my character would like to purchase some land for personal used. However I have no idea how to figure out how much it would cost for a plot of land (size undetermined) and any building that would be located on it.

I'd check the DMG or DMGII.

[PapaNachos]

I'd check the DMG or DMGII.

I've been looking through the DMG, but haven't found anything.

[FelixG]

Well you arnt giving us much to work with, where is the land? If its in a city there is an arbitrary amount given by the GM. But if you want to put up a structure out in the wilderness most of the land is unowned, its not like today where everything is cut into properties, its pretty much yours as long as you pay your taxes to whomever is the boss of the area

[Dr.Epic]

I've been looking through the DMG, but haven't found anything.

Dungeon Master Guide II?

[WarKitty]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...valprices.html that might be a good starting guide. The prices are in pounds, but you should be able to work out a ratio based on some of the other stuff that the DMG does list.

[PapaNachos]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...valprices.html that might be a good starting guide. The prices are in pounds, but you should be able to work out a ratio based on some of the other stuff that the DMG does list.

Some back of the napkin calculations showed that, at least income wise, 1g is about equal to 1000 USD.

Edit: I see prices for renting land, but I'm looking to buy.

[Noedig]

My cleric is a rich bastard then. Anyway, lke FelixG said, you could pretty much set up shop wherever the hell you want, as long as you pay your taxes. Or you can dominate person, to make the person you pay taxes to, give them back.

[WarKitty]

Some back of the napkin calculations showed that, at least income wise, 1g is about equal to 1000 USD.

Edit: I see prices for renting land, but I'm looking to buy.

I think it's only the top 5 that are rented. So a small cottage would be about 2 pounds, a good barn could be 83 pounds, etc.

[PapaNachos]

My cleric is a rich bastard then. Anyway, lke FelixG said, you could pretty much set up shop wherever the hell you want, as long as you pay your taxes. Or you can dominate person, to make the person you pay taxes to, give them back.

I would like to buy it inside a city, which means no free land.

I think it's only the top 5 that are rented. So a small cottage would be about 2 pounds, a good barn could be 83 pounds, etc.

Any idea how that would convert to either modern currency (inflation and whatnot) or D&Dland money.

[Aroka]

I'd check the DMG or DMGII.

Never use the business rules in the DMG2 - whoever wrote them didn't do the math, and the rules actually literally make it impossible to recoup an investment into anything other than a high-risk business in decades.


Anyway, building prices are in the DMG. Land costs... well, land costs whatever the owner will take for it; or nothing, if the land isn't owned (you'll just have to stake your claim and keep others out).

What level of society are we talking here? Land ownership is always achingly vague in D&D settings, when it was the most important defining element of medieval (feudal) society.

Realistically, all cultivated land (not "unincorporated" frontier inhabited only by settlers) and all land within the borders of a nation is going to be owned by someone, usually a noble. In more late-period settings, merchants (or merchant houses, but they're practically nobles) may own land, especially in cities and around them, or in key production areas.

Nobles don't just sell land - first, because they don't actually own it (unless it happens to be an allodial holding), but rather hold it for their liege lord. The way feudalism works is that the people who own the most land parcel it out in smaller units to a bunch of other guys who administer it for them and pay taxes; these people can further parcel out smaller units to others; and so on.

To put it very roughly, the king gives land to the dukes/counts/barons/earls, who give land to the baronets, who give land to the knights; but really everyone has members of basically all the lower classes enfiefed to them, so the king has knights directly under them, and the duke has counts, and so on.

The knights - each of whom holds a manor (the smallest unit of land ownership, essentially) - either use serfs/villeins (peasants bound to the land) to work it, or may parcel it out in farms to tenant farmers (who are usually much more well-to-do than other types). Serfs essentially get substinence living, while tenants get to keep most of what they make (except for taxes), and usually pay for the privilege by working on the lands directly tied to the manor.

Now, you could be able to buy land from a noble - either by buying a title and the land that goes with it, or just buying acreage - but it's going to have big political repercussions for everyone. For one thing, a noble selling the land outright will be getting a one-time payment and permanently losing wealth (land, the most important income source; and any specific resources on it), and losing the ability to raise warriors from that land (the main feudal duty of the vassal is to provide a set number of warriors - usually one knight and entourage per manor - to your liege upon request). For another, you're going to be sandwiched between the holdings of various nobles, who may or may not like you - and if you bought the land outright, you've got no liege to lend you protection against anyone trying to take your land (the main feudal duty of the liege).

In medieval Europe, the church also owned a lot of land (that's actually why Catholic priests were eventually forbidden to marry: it was feared their sons would be grabbing up the lands their fathers held for the church as inheritance), which was divided into parishes, to which people belonged (usually parishes overlapped with lords' fiefs, but they could be their own holdings entirely).

If you want to get into the details of land ownership - and it can be very fun to roleplay with, if you're into political and social RP - I really recommend the books Fief and A Magical Medieval Society. The first is system-neutral, the second is d20 OGL in a heavy way (but that means lots of useful gold piece numbers for D&D).


And now I previewed and updated the thread, and see that the land would be inside a city. You can probably assume the ownership (or right-of-use) to any land in a city is included in the cost of the building that's on it. Why complicate it when it's just a matter of numbers of gold pieces?

[PapaNachos]

*stuff*

Interesting points. Technically my character has knight status so I might be able to use that to my advantage.

Anyway, I doubt in D&Dland acreage is the biggest measure of wealth. It seems like access to magic would have a much greater impact on it. As you pointed out the reason land was so valuable was because of the people that lived on it. The introduction of magic make WHO lives on your land much more important than strictly how many.

Actually the very idea of a stable hierarchy really doesn't make much sense in D&D, unless your rank is equivalent to your power and the highest level wizard (who doesn't have better things to do) is king. How would a government work with D&D mechanics (assuming no RAW abuse)

[FelixG]

What you might consider doing, is go into the DMG, look at the prices of buildings, and ask your GM if you can divide the cost by 10 to 50 if you want the land.

Though one thing you may consider is that there may be no land empty to buy in the city proper so you may just need to buy an existing building then upgrade to another, after all the buying a building part assumes you are buying the land as well.

[Coidzor]

So, what, you're looking to buy a vacant lot in a medieval-style city?

Because if you're just looking to buy an inn or townhouse... the price of the land's going to be figured into the price of the place.

If it's an inn or shop, then how well the place is doing is going to have to be figured into the price at which the owner will sell out.

[PapaNachos]

What you might consider doing, is go into the DMG, look at the prices of buildings, and ask your GM if you can divide the cost by 10 to 50 if you want the land.

Though one thing you may consider is that there may be no land empty to buy in the city proper so you may just need to buy an existing building then upgrade to another, after all the buying a building part assumes you are buying the land as well.

Wow, I just found that table. Those prices are absolutely absurd. A one to three room house costs $1,000,000? Forget adventuring, I'm forming a construction company.

Edit:

So, what, you're looking to buy a vacant lot in a medieval-style city?

Yes, though if I can't find one I would be okay with a building already being there.

[Coidzor]

^: So do you have any kind of building in particular you want to buy or are you looking to tear an existing structure down regardless and build something wacky?

Wow, I just found that table. Those prices are absolutely absurd. A one to three room house costs $1,000,000? Forget adventuring, I'm forming a construction company.

Well, the reason they're so expensive is because, well, there's generally not a whole lot of new buildings being made in a medieval city. So the existing structures have an inflated value.

Your game may or may not have greater population growth and ease of transportation/access to building materials in order to make new places though, which would impact prices significantly.

[PapaNachos]

Well, the reason they're so expensive is because, well, there's generally not a whole lot of new buildings being made in a medieval city. So the existing structures have an inflated value.

Your game may or may not have greater population growth and ease of transportation/access to building materials in order to make new places though, which would impact prices significantly.

I would guess that the prices were chosen arbitrarily rather than factoring in that many variables. Especially considering how much work was spent balancing the rest of D&D.

Edit:

^: So do you have any kind of building in particular you want to buy or are you looking to tear an existing structure down regardless and build something wacky?

I'm looking to set up a personal workshop/headquarters. I'll be moving outside of the city in a few levels, since there is a fair amount of unclaimed land. I just don't want to have to worry about protecting it yet.

[FelixG]

Wow, I just found that table. Those prices are absolutely absurd. A one to three room house costs $1,000,000? Forget adventuring, I'm forming a construction company.

Edit:

Yes, though if I can't find one I would be okay with a building already being there.

A three room house is 1,000 gp ~.~

a huge castle is 1,000,000

[PapaNachos]

A three room house is 1,000 gp ~.~

a huge castle is 1,000,000

Yes, but as previously mentioned 1g = 1000 USD

[EnnPeeCee]

Might want to look at the Stronghold Builders Guide. It lists land price as a percent increase or decrease on the final price of the entire structure being built.

[FelixG]

Yes, but as previously mentioned 1g = 1000 USD

thats BS, by that an empty leather backpack of ordinary quality is 2,000 USD 1gp MAY equate to 100 usd

[PapaNachos]

thats BS, by that an empty leather backpack of ordinary quality is 2,000 USD 1gp MAY equate to 100 usd

Which is why I said that it looked like priced were chosen arbitrarily.

[Coidzor]

I would guess that the prices were chosen arbitrarily rather than factoring in that many variables. Especially considering how much work was spent balancing the rest of D&D.

Indeed, between that and the "Fun" that is the Stronghold Builder's Guide, I'd say you're better off working out something more or less reasonable with your DM. There was some discussion of some homebrewed guidelines for modifying the stronghold builder's guide at one point that were apparently well regarded, but I can't recall a link...

I'm looking to set up a personal workshop/headquarters. I'll be moving outside of the city in a few levels, since there is a fair amount of unclaimed land. I just don't want to have to worry about protecting it yet.

Sounds like you want at least a large town-house then. Though, if you're looking to move out of the city soonish, do you have a patron in the area? Or is that why you're looking for a place of your own, your patron's letting ya loose(er) and you need a place of your own before you're ready to go carve out a demense out of monster-country?


One thing though. Don't make the mistake of trying to convert from GP to USD. It's a headache that doesn't get you anywhere. Mostly because the conversion doesn't work due to things either having a vastly inflated or vastly deflated value depending upon what items you used to base the conversion off of.

[FelixG]

Which is why I said that it looked like priced were chosen arbitrarily.

That may be so, but again DnD is not an economic simulator, the pricers were never intended to all match up perfectly, or even match to USD, and if you go by the conversions in some of the other D20 books that go from GP to profit check then from profit check to dollars its closer to 50 USD per GP

my source is the D20 mecha book where it shows how to find the cost of the same mecha in every form of currency and allows you to extrapolate a correct comparison

[PapaNachos]

Indeed, between that and the "Fun" that is the Stronghold Builder's Guide, I'd say you're better off working out something more or less reasonable with your DM. There was some discussion of some homebrewed guidelines for modifying the stronghold builder's guide at one point that were apparently well regarded, but I can't recall a link...

Yeah, but we weren't sure how much it would cost. He actually suggested looking here for some info, just to get a decent idea of whether it would in the area of 5g or 500g

Sounds like you want at least a large town-house then. Though, if you're looking to move out of the city soonish, do you have a patron in the area? Or is that why you're looking for a place of your own, your patron's letting ya loose(er) and you need a place of your own before you're ready to go carve out a demense out of monster-country?

We have a place to crash in the mean time, but I want a place thats -mine-

Edit:

That may be so, but again DnD is not an economic simulator, the pricers were never intended to all match up perfectly, or even match to USD, and if you go by the conversions in some of the other D20 books that go from GP to profit check then from profit check to dollars its closer to 50 USD per GP

Unfortunately the 1g:$50 ends with most people being too poor to afford anything. I'm using the prices for hiring workers in the DMG for my calculations.

[FelixG]

Poor by our standards yes, and in the setting most people ARE poor XD alot of them dont even own the homes they live in, they are indentured and only really pay for their food, they pretty much make everything else that they need.

Thats a general fallacy when doing such calculations, it is only natural to want to assume that our life styles and spending (and earning) habits are the same when the culture is quite different.

[Coidzor]

The peon economy works out okish, depending. Someone did a case study in examining how it worked out for them, but I'm having trouble finding it via google.

But, yeah, laborers are basically going to barely be making enough to feed themselves, IIRC.

[PapaNachos]

Poor by our standards yes, and in the setting most people ARE poor XD alot of them dont even own the homes they live in, they are indentured and only really pay for their food, they pretty much make everything else that they need.

Thats a general fallacy when doing such calculations, it is only natural to want to assume that our life styles and spending (and earning) habits are the same when the culture is quite different.

I mean extremely poor, in the $1250 a year sense. Thats before expenses.

[dgnslyr]

I would like to buy it inside a city, which means no free land.

You can just have the former owner, ahem, disappear.

Liberal application of Dominate Person is also fine.