Would you allow this?

[Evard]

Ok so when I sugested to my friend that he could play a bard, he laughed and said that they sucked... I didn't like that to well So I'm going to make a Uber-Bard to wipe the look off his face... But I think there might be to much here...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...asses.htm#bard

Take this class variant which would give the Bard a Druid animal companion (other nifty things but that is the main point to taking this)

Now for feats I would choose
Human) Extra Music
1) Extra Music
3) Extra Music
6) Extra Music
9) Lyrical Spell
12) EM
15) Em
18) Em

Since the games usually make it to about level 15 ... That would be 24 extra bardic music to play with.. When using lyrical spell you pay 1 + spell level in bardic music sooo the idea situation would be...

Bear charges, bard casts rage on the bear (3 BM uses), the bear attacks, next round cast heroism on the bear (3 BM uses) and have the bear attack, then for kicks and giggles cast slow on the enemy (4 BM uses or maybe do this first). And if you really wanted to... pad on a blur spell to the bear (20% miss chance for 3 BM uses)... After all that you have a blurry heroic raging bear that the enemy can't see mauling on him/her (the blur is in case other enemies show up)....

All without loosing a spell if i read the feat correctly from crystalkeep

I done something like this in another game and the bard was a crazy spell slinger.. But I made him with physical stats so he could go into melee...with the animal companion he has melee options without needing to do it himself :D

Oh and yes extra music stacks...

I also didn't take in account how many Bardic Music that a Bard naturally gets >.<;;;

Animal Companion progression would look like this..
1)wolf
4)ape
7)dire ape
16) triceratops

or something like that :p This part is more for fluff since the bard can stack on buff spells like crazy (cats grace... hmm)

Anyways is there a PrC that will allow me to follow this but add on some goodies? Also is this to over the top?

[Vangor]

You are nixing a large portion of what Bard is by losing inspire courage, competence, greatness, and heroics to gain part of the advantages of an entirely different class which is fairly widely recognized as really good. Bards are pretty damn good, in my opinion, able to cover every situation well while being quite valuable to the party.

[bartman]

If you really want to wipe the floor with him, I would stay away from the animal companion. That to me screams "Druid who can sing"

Since I have never played a bard, I cannot offer any help on your build, but as a player, I would scream DM Shenanigans if you tried playing that of as a bard to me.

[Evard]

Out of the inspire line.. greatness and heroics are the only ones I've found useful and even then there are spells that would cost next to nothing that can get you similar effects...

Heroism greater, shout, illusions, cats grace, eagles splendor, dimensional door, and all the curing you could ever need trumps those two class abilities...

The only thing I don't like giving up is Bardic Knowledge though


Edit:

Druid who can sing, wear metal, shoot spells all day long, and convince you that his ferocious looking bear is actually a house cat ^ ^

[Tinydwarfman]

If you really want to wipe the floor with him, go Dragonfire Inspiration optimization with Snowflake Wardance, etc.

(depending on level get +14 to hit, damage, and +14d6 fire damage from singing. And you can still do other stuff.)

[Evard]

I have no clue what those are haha

[Enguhl]

Skill focus (preform), fascinate.
You're welcome.

[JKTrickster]

I agree with some of the others here. Even if you absolutely own with that build, the other player would just accuse you that its the bear that's doing all the work.

Instead look up Words of Creation, Badge of Valor (I think that's what the item was called), etc. that help boost Inspire Courage bonuses up to the stratosphere. Then just use Dragonfire Inspiration, and a couple other feats to change that to useful extra damage. With something like Snowflake Wardance, some Cha boosting items, and Slippers of Battledancing (maybe), you can just beat the living crap out of things while dancing and singing along.

Oh and did I mention how every ally (and you included) gets +14d6 or so extra sonic damage to each attack?

Now THAT's a bard.

[DementedFellow]

In terms of game-breaking bardic goodness, you could simply show him a half-elf bard who just happens to be great at diplomacy. You can win encounters without even raising a weapon.

[Tinydwarfman]

Oh and did I mention how every ally (and you included) gets +14d6 or so extra sonic damage to each attack?

Now THAT's a bard.

Don't forget that they count as different songs, so you can both benefits!

Bard Handbook

[Gametime]

Out of the inspire line.. greatness and heroics are the only ones I've found useful and even then there are spells that would cost next to nothing that can get you similar effects...

Heroism greater, shout, illusions, cats grace, eagles splendor, dimensional door, and all the curing you could ever need trumps those two class abilities...

But you can have all those spells and the Bardic Music. The animal companion isn't bad, but Inspire Courage is a great tool. Even without Dragonfire Inspiration, you can get +1 from Badge of Valor, another +1 from a Inspirational Boost, and double the result with Words of Creation. +8 to attacks and damage for the whole party is pretty nice by mid levels; +8d6 damage for the whole party is pretty sickening.

Really, though, your most powerful class feature as a bard is Glibness. Max out Bluff. Pump Charisma. Cast Glibness. Get away with anything you want.

[Evard]

The thing I was thinking is that you don't need the inspire line if you can cast spells all day long. Also yeah they might say that the bear is doing all the melee work but the Bard will be blasting/buffing/debuffing so much that they wont know which one is scarier :P

Glibness is a level 3 spell therefore with the build it would take 4 uses of BM to use... So its usable 6 times without wasting a spell slot... That + bluff would be an insane tool to use and it even lasts for 10 min/level so at level 15 sooo that's 150 mins for one casting :P

With the animal companion the bard only need Cha, Int, Con... Without the animal companion the bard needs bit of everything except wis... Str (melee), Dex (defense or melee), Con (health), Int (skills), Cha (spells and lying)... Giving the bard an animal companion takes away the dependency on str/dex for attacking (sure you will want a decent dex for defense but with this build you could buff with cats grace and have a decent score that goes with light armor)

[Critical]

So, you want to prove to your friend that bards don't suck by homebrewing?

[Person_Man]

Bards are actually one of the strongest non-full casters in the game, as long as you have access to enough books.

Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Convert inspire courage bonuses to elemental damage depending on dragon type.

Words of Creation (BoED, pg. 48). Doubles bonus from bardic music effects, but you take subdual damage.

Melodic Casting (CM, pg. 44): Replace Concentration with Perform. Cast spells/use items while maintaining bardic music.

Song of the Heart (ECS, pg. 60): Bonus granted by your music increases by +1.

Lingering Song (CA, pg. 111): Bardic Music lasts 1 minute after you stop playing.

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn): Expend Bardic music to get Charisma to damage.

Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium, pg. 124): +1 to inspire courage. Can be used during the start of bardic music for longer lasting effect.

Vest of Legends (DMG II, pg. 272). Bonus to Diplomacy and Perform. Treated as a bard of higher level for bardic music bonuses.

Badge of Valor (MIC, pg. 208). Bonus on Charm or Fear saves. Or +1 to inspire courage. Either 3/day.

Crystal Echoblade (MIC). Bonus Sonic Damage while using bardic music.

Harmonizing Weapon (MIC). Bonus on Perform checks and the weapon maintains the bardic music, allowing you to cast spells or activate items.

Animate Objects: Creates 1 animated object per caster level. Combine with the above Inspire combo. Or have each of them use the Aid Another action (nanobots combo) to help you make any check.

Improvisation (Spell Comp): Gives you a floating bonus to any check that scales with your Bard level.

Bardic Knack (PHB II): With this plus the Jack of All Trades feat, you gain 1/2 your class level in every Skill. Combine with Improvisation or nanobots, and you can pretty much make any Skill check.

Glibness: +30 to your Bluff check. Why fight someone, when you can trick them into working for you?

Summon Monster: Many creatures that you can summon can cast spells and/or have other useful special abilities (like walking into traps for you). Also, several books expand the creatures you can summon with this core spell.

Combat Panache feat (PHBII): Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. Great for boss fights.

Use Magic Device: As a Cha based class, you have any easy time making UMD checks very early in your progression, especially when combined with your Skill boosting abilities.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

[Alejandro]

That's not a bard, that's a suboptimized druid using a bear animal companion. Also, the bear can be rendered no threat by an opponent simply flying, then blasting it.

[Snake-Aes]

If you want to show him an asskicking bard, then build a BARD. If you just change it into something else with variant rules, it's not longer the bard. The base bard kicks ass.

I will not bash much because you already confessed you don't know much about them :p
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...Bards_Handbook
Snowflake Wardance is a way bards have to attack with charisma. Dragonfire inspiration adds damage to a bunch of stuff. Bards are nasty buggers, sir or dame.

[Evard]

That's not a bard, that's a suboptimized druid using a bear animal companion. Also, the bear can be rendered no threat by an opponent simply flying, then blasting it.

Yeah thats what a DM thought once before my cleric tailor made a robe of wings (or whatever it is called) to fit the druid's bear (he said i could make it any size...) :D The Druid trained the bear to fly in it... talk about scary (the druid activated it the bear just used it)

@ critical its not a homebrew I got everything from srd/crystal keep and its more of "they dont suck, look what can be done"

[Critical]

@ critical its not a homebrew I got everything from srd/crystal keep and its more of "they dont suck, look what can be done"

Uh, ok, lets give a standard fighter wizard's casting and smite evil. It's not homebrew!



It still is.

[Greenish]

its more of "they dont suck, look what can be done"

"Look what can be done if you swap the defining feature of the class for a druid class feature."

Bards, actual bards, do not suck the least. Making one a second-rate druid hardly demonstrates this, however.

[Edit]:

Uh, ok, lets give a standard fighter wizard's casting and smite evil. It's not homebrew!

AFCs aren't homebrew.

[true_shinken]

Uh, ok, lets give a standard fighter wizard's casting and smite evil. It's not homebrew!

I don't see your point. He is using official material from Unearthed Arcana.

Also, bards have some very good things - for example, bardic knack. I love bardic knack + Jack of All Trades. "Oh, you are flat-footed in front of me? Well, since I have a sheathed dagger... Iaijutsu Focus... oh, OK, you die. No, I don't have a single rank in that skill."

[Evard]

But making a bard that focuses on Spells (singing) and Lying his/her butt off is not making it an unoptimized druid. The other part of what you get from a druid I'm not even looking at them, just the animal companion. Getting rid of the inspire line doesn't stop the bard from being a bard, just with this build he can focus on skills,magic,lying and have a viable melee option to help the party.

I could replace one of the extra music with bardic knack to boost on skills but i'm not sure if there will be a lot of uses for them outside bluff/feint/tumble/UMD since the games are more combat oriented

[Stompy]

Oh and did I mention how every ally (and you included) gets +14d6 or so extra sonic damage to each attack?

Now THAT's a bard.

Does this includes the Crackling Cacophony spell that makes a zone of double sonic damage?

Honestly, bluff, diplomacy, (look at the RAW rules for this skill; it is retarded, and it has 3 skill synergies.), and the inspire courage shenanigans should be more than enough to prove a point.

[true_shinken]

But making a bard that focuses on Spells (singing) and Lying his/her butt off is not making it an unoptimized druid. The other part of what you get from a druid I'm not even looking at them, just the animal companion. Getting rid of the inspire line doesn't stop the bard from being a bard, just with this build he can focus on skills,magic,lying and have a viable melee option to help the party.

Animal companion (withour druid spells to buff him) is weaker than inspire courage, also.
...and if you want a bard to focus in spells, you should really use Sublime Chord or Lyrical Thaumaturge.
What you are doing is interesting. It just isn't optimal.
You could get a Wild Cohort via a feat and keep Inspire Courage, also.

I could replace one of the extra music with bardic knack to boost on skills but i'm not sure if there will be a lot of uses for them outside bluff/feint/tumble/UMD since the games are more combat oriented

Actually, you just need to swap bardic knowledge for bardic knack.
You do need a feat for Jack of All Trades, though.

[Haarkla]

Ok so when I sugested to my friend that he could play a bard, he laughed and said that they sucked... I didn't like that to well So I'm going to make a Uber-Bard to wipe the look off his face... But I think there might be to much here...

As a DM I would have no problem allowing this, however, it is entirely suboptimal. This in not an Uber-Bard to wipe the look off anybodys face.

Your party trick (lyrical spell) does not come in till lvl 9, and then you are relying on a CR 3-4 animal companion to fight for you.

Now for feats I would choose
Human) Extra Music
1) Extra Music
3) Extra Music
6) Extra Music
9) Lyrical Spell
12) EM
15) Em
18) Em

Crappy. For an highly optimised bard you want;
Human) marital weapon proficiency (greatsword)
1) weapon focus (greatsword)
3) spell focus (enchantment)

Animal Companion progression would look like this..
1)wolf
4)ape
7)dire ape
16) triceratops

Good. But remember, your animal companion is primarilly useful at low levels.

[Stompy]

Crappy. For an highly optimised bard you want;
Human) marital weapon proficiency (greatsword)
1) weapon focus (greatsword)
3) spell focus (enchantment)

Huh? I have never seen optimized bards run a greatsword, because they usually have a bad STR score (usually around 10) and a d6 hit die.

If you're going melee bard, cheese the inspire courage, get TWF, and pick up a set of feycraft kukris so you can attack with your DEX modifier (EDIT: without picking up Weapon Finesse).

[Prodan]

Don't bother with TWF; get Gloves of the Balanced hand.

Alternatively, just fight with whip dagger or longsword and use power attack.

[potatocubed]

I'm with the advocates of Diplomacy. The true power of a bard is not in winning fights, it's in never needing to fight in the first place and, if you must fight, having half the enemies on your side anyway.

[Tinydwarfman]

Crappy. For an highly optimised bard you want;
Human) marital weapon proficiency (greatsword)
1) weapon focus (greatsword)
3) spell focus (enchantment)

You best be joking.

[ScionoftheVoid]

You best be joking.

They may have missed that Snowflake Wardance needs to wield the weapon in one hand, but I'm don't think so or it would be in the third level slot. They might actually be serious.

[TurtleKing]

I am also with the diplomacy bunch. There is a saying around here that says a fighter can kill a person in a standard action. A cleric in a move action, and a wizard in a swift action. A bard can get 12 idiots to the fighting for him.