Pathfinder: Making a Ninja

[Hurrashane]

Ok, so the next time I play pathfinder I want to make a ninja.

Now, my first thought for that was monk/rogue/assassin/shadow dancer, needlessly complex? Most definitely. Then after some research I decided my best option was to go Monk/assassin. An odd combo to be sure but it has some merit.

Ok, so to the main topic of this thread; How do I make this work? There's several things I'd like from you, the community.

Supposing it's a 20 point buy (as our current campaign is) what stat spread should I have, I know I should have high Dex and Wis with a good Int (also going to be human: extra feat, skill points etc...), but will that be enough ?

What kind of feats should I take? I was thinking dodge, mobility, spring attack, weapon finesse, improved initiative, and improved trip: But when should I take these? Should I take these?

And lastly comes the part of actually role playing the ninja. For alignment LE makes sense, a killer who kills what someone else tells them to. Which is all well and good but how would i fit into a party of good aligned characters? the only foreseeable problem I see would be if someone wants to play a paladin, but then it boils down to who wants to play what more and which one would be better for the story. A member of the group expressed that because of the evil alignment there might be a lot of party conflict, I don't see why it would matter (baring the possibility of a paladin),for if the character works -with- the party and doesn't do anything to hinder them there really should be no problem, right?

Looking forward to reading the replies, thanks in advance for the help!

[LibraryOgre]

Monk synergizes oddly with other classes; I think the general concept would work pretty well as a rogue/assassin/shadowdancer, perhaps with some Ranger (only a few levels, to allow for species enemies and the like).

[Zovc]

Phew. I thought you were going to use the Complete Adventurer's Ninja in Pathfinder.

That would have been terribad.

[Caphi]

Swordsage.

What? Don't look at me like that.

[Mongoose87]

Phew. I thought you were going to use the Complete Adventurer's Ninja in Pathfinder.

That would have been terribad.

Uh, well, he is talking about playing a Monk...

[BenInHB]

Use the Kung Fu Genius feat. it takes your WIS based monk abilities and switches them to INT

You can then either get Weapon Finesse or use ranged weapons to take away your need for STR and put it on DEX

Then you can focus on DEX and INT without being so spread out on 4 stats

I would still mix your monk with some rogue before going assassin. More sneak attack dice and more skill points. Monk2/Rogue3/AssassinX

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Use the Kung Fu Genius feat. it takes your WIS based monk abilities and switches them to INT

You can then either get Weapon Finesse or use ranged weapons to take away your need for STR and put it on DEX

Then you can focus on DEX and INT without being so spread out on 4 stats

I would still mix your monk with some rogue before going assassin. More sneak attack dice and more skill points. Monk2/Rogue3/AssassinX

This! If you can swing getting Carmedine Monk, use that instead.

If start at least at level 3, I recommend also going Necropolitan and take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat. If you do so, dump Con, Wis, and Cha all to 7. Boost Int to 18, Dex to 16, and Str to 10

End result before racial modifiers is Str 14 Dex 16 Con - Int 18 Wis 7 Cha 7. Take something that boosts Int and Dex; I recommend going Fire Elf.

[PId6]

Is it PF core only or can 3.5 material work?

You can build a good "ninja" with just Rogue 20, Rogue 11/Assassin 9 (though PF assassin is much worse than 3.5 assassin), or Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1. Monk doesn't help that game plan very much. If 3.5 material is available, it may be worthwhile to dip 1-2 levels of monk, but even in PF, you don't really want more monk levels than that.

Is there any reason why your concept can't be done with just rogue?

[Prime32]

People tend to have wildly different expectations of what a ninja can do. What are yours?

Many of them can be handled by either swordsage or psionics.

Do you want to be able to walk on water, run fast, turn into animals, create copies of yourself? Or just sneak up and stab people?

[Zovc]

Uh, well, he is talking about playing a Monk...

Well, I was trying to say that the Ninja class should be even worse compared to Pathfinder's stuff. I'm not saying they fixed anything, but didn't they give every class more stuff, including the Monk?

[Hurrashane]

Well it's PF core only for one, I should have stated.

And as for what am I looking for in a ninja? Stealthy assassin and a good combatant mostly. Someone who can sneak in and get the job done but if things go awry they can throw down. Hence the monk levels. No weapons needed, and also all the monk weapons add a certain flavor that the rogue doesn't have (kama's, shuriken, to a lesser extent the sai and nunchuck).

Also the monk's abilities add even more to the ninja flavor. Lessening falling distance, jumping bonuses, ki points to do x abilities, bonuses to mind affecting abilities, etc. -That- is why I think the monk suit's it better. Though I wont be much of an assassin till I hit the assassin class. I doubt I'd need more sneak attack when I have death attack. And if I wanted to I could take rogue levels after Assassin.

The skill points may be a problem, but with a decent Int, human skill bonus, and favored class skill points per level I think I can get all the bases covered for general rogue abilities. I wont be as good at them as a straight leveled rogue, but once I hit assassin they all become class skills.

[Andion Isurand]

Take Keen Intellect as your first level only feat... so you can use INT instead of WIS to make Will saves as well as Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks.

Just make sure you can take Kung Fu Genius in time.

I also believe the Kung Fu Genius should apply to Monks and Ninjas as a whole, since the relevant ability modifier to AC isn't added twice when they mutliclass with each another. That way you can have non-lawful characters rocking an INT-based unarmored AC bonus.

Oh, and if you can handle the way how it sounds... you could put the Arctic +0 template from Dragon 306 on the above mentioned Fire Elf.... Arctic Fire Elf.. heh

[Hurrashane]

What book is this keen intellect and kung-fu genius from? As I stated in my second post on this thread "Well it's PF core only for one, I should have stated."

Also, what the heck is a fire elf? And how would that help at all? And is it PF core? And would it get me an extra feat or skill bonus?

[Glimbur]

I doubt I'd need more sneak attack when I have death attack.

What sort of campaign are you expecting? In a social or sneaky campaign, Death Attack can be useful. In a kick in the door campaign, or one where you will not often surprise your enemies...

it takes three rounds of study while the enemy does not recognize you as a threat. In a crowded market this is fine, if you can sneak up on the Grand Vizier as he stands at a window and thinks that is fine. It is less useful if you kick down a door and find a room full of orcs.

Sneak Attack, on the other hand, will help you against people who are not expecting it, like Death Attack, but also against the room full of orcs assuming you have a party to flank with.

Sleeping people are pretty trivial because the save DC from a coup de grace is scary. Fort save DC 10+damage dealt... a fifth level rogue can expect 1d6 from weapon plus 3d6 from sneak attack for an average of DC 24 save... which is difficult at ECL 5. That would drop an Aboleth, a CR 7 monster, on average rolls.(how to sneak up on an underwater monster is left as an exercise for the reader) Even a young blue dragon has difficulty.

[Hurlbut]

Well it's PF core only for one, I should have stated.

And as for what am I looking for in a ninja? Stealthy assassin and a good combatant mostly. Someone who can sneak in and get the job done but if things go awry they can throw down. Hence the monk levels. No weapons needed, and also all the monk weapons add a certain flavor that the rogue doesn't have (kama's, shuriken, to a lesser extent the sai and nunchuck).

Also the monk's abilities add even more to the ninja flavor. Lessening falling distance, jumping bonuses, ki points to do x abilities, bonuses to mind affecting abilities, etc. -That- is why I think the monk suit's it better. Though I wont be much of an assassin till I hit the assassin class. I doubt I'd need more sneak attack when I have death attack. And if I wanted to I could take rogue levels after Assassin.

The skill points may be a problem, but with a decent Int, human skill bonus, and favored class skill points per level I think I can get all the bases covered for general rogue abilities. I wont be as good at them as a straight leveled rogue, but once I hit assassin they all become class skills.

You should also max out the skill Disguise. Maybe some ranks in perform (mimicry).
This is how they move about in broad daylight
Plus it also allow the ninja get closer to his target than normal.

[Hurrashane]

What sort of campaign are you expecting? In a social or sneaky campaign, Death Attack can be useful. In a kick in the door campaign, or one where you will not often surprise your enemies...

it takes three rounds of study while the enemy does not recognize you as a threat. In a crowded market this is fine, if you can sneak up on the Grand Vizier as he stands at a window and thinks that is fine. It is less useful if you kick down a door and find a room full of orcs.

Sneak Attack, on the other hand, will help you against people who are not expecting it, like Death Attack, but also against the room full of orcs assuming you have a party to flank with.

Even with kick in the door style, I'm not going to be the one kicking in the door. I can hide, I can wait, then when three rounds have past, unless I'm super needed, I attack. Also the Pathfinder assassin has an ability to (although once per day) death attack without studying.

Our normal campaigns have a good mix between kick in the door and that other style of play whose name escapes me at the moment.

[Andion Isurand]

What book is this keen intellect and kung-fu genius from? As I stated in my second post on this thread "Well it's PF core only for one, I should have stated."

Also, what the heck is a fire elf? And how would that help at all? And is it PF core? And would it get me an extra feat or skill bonus?

Well...

Keen Intellect is an ancestor feat (1st level only) from Oriental Adventures 3.5 as poresented in Dragon Magazine 318 (pg. 38).

Kung Fu Genius is in Dragon Magazine 319 (pg. 71).

Fire Elf is from Unearthed Arcana as shown here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ra....htm#fireElves

[Mongoose87]

The problem with relying on Death Attack is that it's simply not reliable. The save DC is very underwhelming, considering the effort you have to put into it.

Let me be the first to say an Arcane Trickster could be the best PF Core Assassin. Greater Invisibility? Yes, please!

[Hurrashane]

Well, Andion Isurand, none of these help me as it's PF core only, but thank you anyway.

Mongoose, you may be right about relying on Death attack. But that's why I wouldn't be relying on it so much in an actual fight, it's nice, but it shouldn't be necessary. I would use it for the times when the ninja's lord calls them to assassinate somebody, so it's mostly for flavor with some practical uses. If you have another suggestion that would fill this role but with more practical uses I'd be happy to hear it.

[Mongoose87]

Stab them in the face with a Greater Arrow of Slaying or three?

[Tinydwarfman]

A Swordsage or a Factotum are the best non-core ninjas. In core, I would just go Rogue with a splash of Assassin and Shadowdancer.

[Hurrashane]

Just as a quick question. Why rogue? The monk has more ninja flavor what with the weapons super natural abilities etc.. What has the rogue got on it that is inherently ninja? Sneak attack is nice, but I can live without it.

[Tinydwarfman]

Just as a quick question. Why rogue? The monk has more ninja flavor what with the weapons super natural abilities etc.. What has the rogue got on it that is inherently ninja? Sneak attack is nice, but I can live without it.

What do Ninja's do for you? There are many different types of ninjas in pop culture. If your ninja wear orange jumpsuits, and think that sneaking up on people is wrong, then go monk. If you ninja is primarily stealthy and attacks from the shadows, go swordsage rogue.

[Hurrashane]

As I stated earlier "And as for what am I looking for in a ninja? Stealthy assassin and a good combatant mostly. Someone who can sneak in and get the job done but if things go awry they can throw down. Hence the monk levels. No weapons needed, and also all the monk weapons add a certain flavor that the rogue doesn't have (kama's, shuriken, to a lesser extent the sai and nunchuck)."

Which is why I was thinking of going Monk to Assassin. Monk helps them get combat ready, Ninja style weapon proficiency and a number of useful movement and combat tricks (flurry of blows, combat maneuver defense bonus, and their bonus feats are to my liking.)

[Tinydwarfman]

As I stated earlier "And as for what am I looking for in a ninja? Stealthy assassin and a good combatant mostly. Someone who can sneak in and get the job done but if things go awry they can throw down. Hence the monk levels. No weapons needed, and also all the monk weapons add a certain flavor that the rogue doesn't have (kama's, shuriken, to a lesser extent the sai and nunchuck)."

Which is why I was thinking of going Monk to Assassin. Monk helps them get combat ready, Ninja style weapon proficiency and a number of useful movement and combat tricks (flurry of blows, combat maneuver defense bonus, and their bonus feats are to my liking.)

A rogue is just as good of a combatant as a monk, more so if you can use tactical stuff. Monk really doesn't add much mechanically to the combination, hence my previous post.

[Hurlbut]

Yes, plus the rogue can pick up a spell or two through tricks.

[LibraryOgre]

Given that you're looking at Pathfinder core, I'd do something like this:

Ranger 3-5. That gets you some good HP, good BAB, and Species Enemy (whatever is the most common race in your DMs campaigns). It also nets you a favored terrain, which you can use on something ninja-y (urban or, if you're feeling Legend of Kage, Forests). The level 5 would be nice for a second species enemy (second most common race). Ranger spells make a nice complement to Ninja abilities... Calm Animals to silence guard dogs, Jump to let you do fancy ninja maneuvers, etc. Your animal companion can be something like a monkey or a bird... something you've trained to help you, that can do things you cannot. For your weapon style feat, consider Quick Draw (to throw all those daggers and shuriken) or Point Blank Shot (to make them count).

Rogue: I'd avoid more than a couple levels, and certainly no more than 4. Most of what you want can be covered by Ranger or your prestige classes.

Assassin: 4 or 5 levels, at least. That nets you some nice sneak attack (to complement your Species Enemy), and things like uncanny dodge.

Shadowdancer: Throw a good chunk into shadow dancer. The main problem with it is that your SLAs key off charisma, which you likely won't have much of.

Ideally, I'd look at 5 levels of Ranger, then alternate Assassin and Shadowdancer, until you reach 5 or so in assassin, then throw the rest in Shadowdancer. It will be someone with a good core of combat skills, sufficient special abilities, and able to do a great amount of damage.

EDIT: The main thing this build misses out on is the "special" monk weapons. If those are really important to you, go Monk 1/Ranger 4. It won't cripple you (and will, in fact, allow you to use your Wisdom for AC, which is nice at low levels if you have a decent wisdom).

Also, while it's not strictly core, look at getting a whetstone for your disposable missile weapons (whether darts or shuriken). It's pretty much a free +1 to damage for a few silver and saying "I touch up my weapons with a whetstone before I sleep."

[Hurrashane]

My first thought when deciding to go with the monk was to go monk 5 then turn assassin. Though there is a lot that the rogue can do that mimics the abilities I want from the monk, it takes a lot longer to get there. In 5 levels of rogue I get two rogue talents, 3d6 sneak attack, evasion, trapsence, and trapfinding.

Where as with the monk I'd get two bonus feats, stunning fist, evasion, fast movement, maneuver training, still mind, Ki pool (magic), slow fall (20ft), high jump and purity of body.

For the monk I just see more bang for my buck. The assassin class would give me all I need from the rogue. Plus I can take my last 5 levels in rogue if I so chose (to up my sneak attack).

[Edit] Mark I like the ranger addition, it's something I didn't think of. I'll have to think more on that.

[PId6]

Where as with the monk I'd get two bonus feats, stunning fist, evasion, fast movement, maneuver training, still mind, Ki pool (magic), slow fall (20ft), high jump and purity of body.

While monks have a lot of abilities, the problem with them is that most of those abilities are terrible. Of the ones you mentioned, the vast majority of the useful abilities are found in the first two levels; beyond that, monk just doesn't add much.

Fast Movement is decent, but it's an enchancement bonus, which means it stacks with pretty much nothing. You can get the same thing from Boots of Striding and Springing. Maneuver Training provides, at best, +2 to CMB. Not great when you're probably not using combat maneuvers much anyway. Still Mind is not completely worthless, but it's only a minor, situational bonus that you can mimic using cheap magic items. Slow Fall is utterly useless; it's only 20 ft, and only when you're next to a wall. A cheap Ring of Feather Fall is vastly more useful than that waste of a class feature. Ki pool is low and requires investment in Wisdom (making you more MAD), while High Jump and Purity of Body are both incredibly situational.

Now consider rogue. Sneak Attack is the biggest draw here, and 3d6 Sneak Attack means an extra 10.5 average damage each hit (which adds up fast). Trap Sense is worthless, but Rogue Talents are quite good. You can use them to snatch two bonus feats, or get Minor -> Major Magic for useful SLAs (get Feather Fall if you want to utterly outclass the monk's Slow Fall for hilarity). Finally, you end up with 20 extra skill points than monk 5, with a far better list. Rogue is just much better than monk when it comes to quality of abilities, while all monk has is quantity.

If you really want monk abilities, go with Rogue 3/Monk 2 as entry. You'll have the best that monk has to offer (i.e. the first two levels of it), while still getting +3d6 Sneak Attack and a rogue talent. Just never take monk above level 2; it's not worth it at all.