(3.5) Stunlocking to victory?

[Zergrusheddie]

For the purpose of this post, I mean "stunlock" to describe "Any actions taken to specifically make an opponent unable to act."

Are there any builds that are able to specialize very effectively at stunlocking? Obviously, a Wizard is probably the ultimate winner but just using spells seems dull. I know melee types can Trip and Grapple, but are there builds that can just make their enemies completely unable to act?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Zaq]

What game are you playing?

[Zergrusheddie]

I see that I never mentioned it.

3.5 DnD.

[cupkeyk]

Diplomancer bards can too.

Sublime chord has a song that allows them to freeze a person in time or stun them or other stuff. Of course its so much easier for a sublime chord to just blast a baddie into powder but yeah the diplomancer is fun.

[Jack_Simth]

Ah. Well, it depends on what people are doing.

The Spiked Chain Tripper is a lockdown build (chug a potion of Enlarge Person, and you selectively control quite a large section of the battlefield). However, it mostly only works against melee-based opponents (although there's a few feats that let it work a bit against spellcasters).

A Druid's Entangle spell is remarkably useful for that.

The Wizard, of course, has a LOT of ways to pull it off.

Certain Cleric domains grant the ability to pull Wizard's tricks or Druid's tricks in limited amounts.

"You can't hurt what you can't find" - a Rogue that picks up Hide in Plain Sight can sort-of do this.

Are you looking for any specific flavor?

[Zaq]

It's a bit too powerful and one-trickish to see a lot of use in actual play (at least in my book, YMMV), but Boomerang Daze (with or without Aptitude weapons) is a fightin' man's way of making sure that a target simply doesn't get to act. Ever.

[Prodan]

The monk, of course.

[Fax Celestis]

The soulborn soulmeld Lightning Greaves attaches a save-or-stun to your charge attacks. With pounce, this can mean upwards of five saves per round (more if you totemist it out). Accessible to non-soulborn incarnum classes by spending a feat.

[Mongoose87]

The monk, of course.

He said opponent, not yourself.

[tyckspoon]

A Psion focusing on Energy Stun, especially if you use it as printed with the fast-scaling DC in the XPH instead of the C.Psi version. It's not too hard to put out DC 30+ stuns with that.

[Saya]

Become a lich, boost your cha to ridiculous levels, then reach out and touch someone?

[Superglucose]

You can do it with grappling.

Exclude yourself from a centered AMF (to take care of enemy buffs such as freedom of movement), Shapechange into a Balor, and then sit on their face. For added lulz, throw in some buffs.

[Keld Denar]

The soulborn soulmeld Lightning Greaves Thunderstride Boots attaches a save-or-stun to your charge attacks.

Fixed for accuracy. Come on Fax, I thought you were a MoI guru? *fingerwag*.

If you were a Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis, +2 LA) as a Cha focused debuffer, you could force a DC 45ish Fort save vs paralysis with every touch. Simply stack on debuffs like Aura of Dispair, Aura of Sadness, Dark Companion, fear effects, Hex, etc, and take Ability Focus: Paralyzing Touch and Improved Paralysis. Doesn't work on everything, but I'll neuter just about any humanoid for long enough to slowly break every bone in his body to drink the delicious marrow while he's still alive but unable to scream...

[ex cathedra]

Boomerang Daze [Races of Eberron], as mentioned here, makes this rather easy; whenever you deal damage with a Talenta/Xen'drik Boomerang, the creature being damaged must make a Fortitude save versus Daze. Seems good, right? I failed to mention that the DC is 10 + the damage dealt by the attack.

It's bad enough on its own. Aptitude Weapons say 'Hi', regardless.

[Ravens_cry]

Boomerang Daze [Races of Eberron], as mentioned here, makes this rather easy; whenever you deal damage with a Talenta/Xen'drik Boomerang, the creature being damaged must make a Fortitude save versus Daze. Seems good, right? I failed to mention that the DC is 10 + the damage dealt by the attack.

It's bad enough on its own. Aptitude Weapons say 'Hi', regardless.

Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

[Eurus]

Spellwarp Sniper can be fun, too. Removes reflex saves from spells that you warp. Good with things like Sandblast and Great Thunderclap.

[ex cathedra]

Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

No, but I'm sure that I could find a suitable replacement.

It does everything.

[Mongoose87]

Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

Too bad you can't devour your enemies' hearts to heal yourself.

[Amphetryon]

Given that one Feat (Mark of the Dauntless) completely negates stun/daze, while another (Quick Recovery) makes it considerably easier to resist, how useful is Stunlocking in the meta-discussion? Folks regularly discount Enchantment because it can be obviated with a single choice, after all.

[Tytalus]

A proper lockdown build can achieve essentially this; it prevents certain actions (spellcasting with Mage Slayer, moving with Thicket of Blades + Standstill), while punishing others severely to make them effectively useless (melee attack with Robillard's Gambit, grapple with Close Quarters fighting, etc.). If you do it right, you make even taking no action at all a bad option (e.g., with Defensive Sweep).

Other than that, Dazing is excellent (Boomerang Daze has been mentioned, but there are other options like "Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Boomerang Daze, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver, and a few magic items." (to quote Person Man from another thread).

Given that one Feat (Mark of the Dauntless) completely negates stun/daze, while another (Quick Recovery) makes it considerably easier to resist, how useful is Stunlocking in the meta-discussion? Folks regularly discount Enchantment because it can be obviated with a single choice, after all.

Stunning is just used as an example here. The thread is about denying your opponent actions.

Also, Mark of the Dauntless and Quick Recovery are from sources that are not available to all games.

[Amphetryon]

Also, Mark of the Dauntless and Quick Recovery are from sources that are not available to all games.

As are Mage Slayer, Thicket of Blades + Standstill, Robilar's Gambit, Close Quarters Fighting, Boomerang Daze, Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver...

[9mm]

most of the really good stunlockers have been mentioned. other goodies include the sudden stunning enhancement, various manuvers... oh hell let me just post my old ToS build that goofed around (though not as well as I would have liked) the concept:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=199060

[Tytalus]

As are Mage Slayer, Thicket of Blades + Standstill, Robilar's Gambit, Close Quarters Fighting, Boomerang Daze, Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver...

What are you trying to say here?

These are largely individual options that achieve what the OP asked for; if even one of them is allowed (in particular a Daze tactic), the lock works.

You, however, proposed that a single feat (Quick Recovery doesn't help against lockdown or Daze-locks) from an setting-specific (!) supplement renders this discussion moot. It would, if said supplement was allowed and if all opponents had said feat. In reality, though, it clearly doesn't.

[Person_Man]

I see that the best advice has already been given. I'd also mention that at it's best locking down an enemy is generally a defensive tactic (ie, it prevents them from attacking or moving away from you). In terms of offense, you should just be able to kill your enemy with pure damage in one round. There are exceptions, of course. Boss enemies might be so tough that you can't one-shot them, and a few classes like the Binder and Incarnate specialize in wacky combos rather then strait out killing.

But in general, if you're going to invest 3ish feats and/or a number of class levels in a lock down combo, make sure you've also taken the time to invest in a damage dealing combo, because it's a lot more efficient.

And if you're going to be playing with a lock down build in a group that's not used to it, I'd make a point of getting Iron Heart Surge and a high Str modifier. It's only a matter of time before your DM decides to use your own combos against you.

[Celsius]

The stunlock combo I like to pull off (at least in core-only low to mid tier play) is a Stinking Cloud + Evard's Black Tentacles combo.

Stinking Cloud restricts the enemy(ies) to a single standard action, which is required to escape the grapple of the Black Tentacles, which means that they won't have enough actions to escape the Stinking Cloud, which means that they don't get another chance at the save.

Of course, this wanes in usefulness once enemies start getting stuff like Freedom of Movement or Quickened Dimension Doors, but it's pretty good for the small investment you put in. (2 Conjuration Spells Known for a Wizard)

[Mushroom Ninja]

Ironsoul Forgemaster gets a chance to daze with all melee attacks at a certain level.

[Flickerdart]

Bladeweave is a 2nd level spell that lands a Will save daze on everyone you hit during its round/level duration. Swift action cast, IIRC. War Cry, a 4th level spell (and definitely a swift action to cast) makes people you hit panicked instead.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Minor nitpick on Mark of the Dauntless: it requires both a racial requirement (human, half-elf, gnome, elf, or dwarf) due to needing a true dragonmark and then another feat for the dragonmark itself. Quick Recovery is better, as it's one feat in and of itself and lessens the potential save, but that only works at the start of your turn, so anyone who whips the action economy or has teammates just laughs at you instead.

Bladeweave is a 2nd level spell that lands a Will save daze on everyone you hit during its round/level duration. Swift action cast, IIRC. War Cry, a 4th level spell (and definitely a swift action to cast) makes people you hit panicked instead.

Since Bladeweave is a personal buff spell, I suggest throwing War Weaver on top of it so everyone in your party gets to force Will save or daze! And at your save DC, too!

[PId6]

One broken daze-lock spell is Bladesong. Every round you attack with a weapon (you don't even have to hit), you can make a touch attack with that weapon to automatically daze someone for 1 round, no save. Since touch attacks are often auto-hit, this is incredibly powerful for a 2nd level spell and easily lets you daze-lock someone to death.

[Flickerdart]

Bladesong was replaced by Bladeweave in MIC, I believe.