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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kaun's Avatar

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    Default [4e] Threatening Reach

    Is there a way to get threatening reach as a player in 4e?
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    The only way I can think of is the spear of Urrok the Brave from Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons. It's a high heroic tier artifact.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    IIRC there's a fighter paragon path that gives you threatening reach once per day.
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    Kaun's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    once per day ... bah.


    The spear sounds interesting but im not sure how easly it would be to get.



    Follow up question;

    How many imediate reactions per turn can one player make? I have a feeling i have seen an erata.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    How many imediate reactions per turn can one player make? I have a feeling i have seen an erata.
    You get one immediate reaction or interrupt per round, and one opportunity action per turn. The errata you're thinking of is about free actions, which are normally unlimited (within reason as decided by the DM). According to the errata, you may only make one free action attack per turn. It is heavily disputed on the WOTC boards what exactly this means and whether it is a good change.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Goliath paragon path:
    continuous reach
    1/ecounter threathening reach


    and there is a PHB paragon feat for polearms that comes close to threatening reach
    Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    That's one opportunity action per /opponent/ per turn, isn't it?

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.cello View Post
    That's one opportunity action per /opponent/ per turn, isn't it?
    "You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant's turn, but you can take any number during a round."

    So it's one per turn. It's more-or-less the same as one per opponent per round, although it can be more if said opponent takes actions outside his own turn.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.cello View Post
    That's one opportunity action per /opponent/ per turn, isn't it?
    Yeah i noticed that one, its actualy kinda why im asking.

    Im trying to Figure out a build that goes something like.

    Goliath Warden
    Paragon Stoneblessed

    Uses long spear + stoneblessed + Form of the Oak Sentinel (level 9 daily Evocation)

    Then the wardens mark + their atwill Wardens Grasp to create a 3 square radius safe zone around myself where i could knock enemies away from the softies if they attacked.

    Any ideas or sugestions any one would like to make feel free, i really only started thinking about the idea today.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    I believe there was something in the Shadar-Kai article in Dragon Annual 2009. One of the spiked chain weapon style feats for shadar-kai granted a daily utilty power that gave the user threatening reach with his spiked chain for an encounter.
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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    I believe there was something in the Shadar-Kai article in Dragon Annual 2009. One of the spiked chain weapon style feats for shadar-kai granted a daily utilty power that gave the user threatening reach with his spiked chain for an encounter.
    Sounds similar to the stoneblessed thing.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    Sounds similar to the stoneblessed thing.
    Stoneblessed is somewhat inferior; its power, while an encounter power and not a daily, lasts only until the end of its next turn. The Polearm Master's level 12 utility (in Martial Power 1) and the power granted with the Spiked Chain Expert feat (in Dragon 372) are daily powers that have the Stance keyword, meaning they can last through a whole encounter.

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    Kaun's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Hmmm..

    I think i may have to sit on character builder after work and have a look.


    The more i think about the build the more i get the feeling it may be more hassle then it is worth.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    The more i think about the build the more i get the feeling it may be more hassle then it is worth.
    I think you're somewhat mistaken on that issue, but I think you're going about the "safe zone" idea the wrong way. You're trying to do it by drawing enemies' attacks into yourself, whereas I think the best way to do it is to force enemies away from your zone of control altogether, or at the very least heavily control their movements within it.

    Incidentally, I've thought extensively about such a build, and variants, and have come to the conclusion that the Fighter class, and wielding a Glaive, not a longspear, is the best way to go about it unless you're going Epic. Goliaths also aren't the best race for this, since you should be prioritizing Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, in that order, unless you're going Epic. Thus Half-Orcs, Elves, Shifters, and Humans are better races for this unless you're going Epic (at Epic, you should be a Dwarf Halberdier, because they're ludicrously awesome at this at that level).

    For my reasons for these general conclusions, you'll want to look in Martial Power 1, particularly at the feat Polearm Momentum. You'll also want to examine the first Player's Handbook for the feats Heavy Blade Opportunity and Polearm Gamble. Combine those three things with the Polearm Master paragon path from MP1, a Glaive (which is a heavy blade), and an at-will power that lets you slide an enemy such as Footwork Lure, and you get quite a strong build.

    And if you want to know why Dwarf Halberdiers are stupid good at epic levels, also look for Knockback Swing, and remember that Halberds are axes. Knocking enemies several squares away and off their feet, regardless of whether or not you hit them, is a really strong ability. Epic dwarf halberdiers are literally impossible for creatures with no reach to melee without the dwarf's permission. It's fun stuff



    I've thought about writing a handbook on this matter, but for the most part I'm too lazy. If you want more of my thoughts on it, just ask. You might also be interested in this character, who is an epic Dwarf Halberdier built under the paradigm I outlined above. That build is more than a year old and now outdated, as it doesn't include anything from MP2, but is still very suitable for demonstrating the choices you can make. This character, on the other hand, is a larval form of an Elven glaive tripmonkey; she doesn't have most of the abilities yet, being only level 1, but showcases the sorts of things you kinda need to prepare for later.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Some good info in there..

    I was trying to avoid the polarm gambit route i must admit.

    All so I wasnt intending to shift the damage onto me by the way i was more intending to be able to keep enemies away from friends by pushing them back squares.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    All so I wasnt intending to shift the damage onto me by the way i was more intending to be able to keep enemies away from friends by pushing them back squares.
    How were you going to do that with the Warden, though? Form of the Oak Sentinal doesn't let you move enemies away, and Warden's Grasp doesn't actually prevent the enemy's attack

    I realize that I didn't mention this before, but for one battle per day you aren't reliant on Polearm Gamble, instead using Reaching Stance (the Polearm Master's level 12 daily utility power). That essentially gives you Threatening Reach for the encounter, which given other means of boosting your reach as they come (they're upper-Paragon or Epic, unfortunately) really improves how far your zone of control ranges.

    Still, Polearm Gamble is the one and only means I know of for absolute control like that that doesn't rely on a daily power. Granting combat advantage to someone who's going to be on the ground in a moment is a small price to pay, especially if you're a Defender. And if you're pushing them far away from you anyway, well, it's not a price at all

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroRebel View Post
    How were you going to do that with the Warden, though? Form of the Oak Sentinal doesn't let you move enemies away, and Warden's Grasp doesn't actually prevent the enemy's attack
    Well the theroy is and i may be wrong mind you.

    Wardens grasp is an interrupt so if i push the target one square away from the friend he was trying to attack he wont be able to complete the attack due to not being in range.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    Well the theroy is and i may be wrong mind you.

    Wardens grasp is an interrupt so if i push the target one square away from the friend he was trying to attack he wont be able to complete the attack due to not being in range.
    It's an immediate reaction, so it happens after the triggering attack resolves. No dice, in other words. If it was an immediate interrupt, it would work that way, but it's not, so it doesn't

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Ahh damn...

    That will teach me to think about these thing while at work rather then when i have the books infront of me.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    I'm currently playing a fighter that does exactly what you want to do, I think: negates enemy attacks by wrenching them out of range for their attacks. The build is dependent on playing a fighter with a flail.

    The feat Lashing Flail (from MP2) lets you slide an enemy 1 square when you hit them with a melee basic attack with a flail. Since a fighter's Combat Challenge is an immediate interrupt, you can stop an enemy's melee attack by sliding them out of range of their target before their attack can go off. However, this ability is dependent on having the target marked and next to you - and any enemy with reach will just get closer than they normally have to to attack.

    To add to the fun, see if your DM will let you apply a Staggering Weapon to the mix. Staggering Weapons add their enhancement bonus to the slide distance of any power that slides a target - if your DM reads Lashing Flail as modifying a melee basic attack (which is a power that every character has), enemy reach is no longer a problem.

    So yes, you can cancel out enemy melee attacks with a flail fighter. However, you have to have them marked, and be next to them. It's fun to do, but it has its limitations - and also, the DM will probably be irritated with you for ruining their fun. But hey, you're a defender, it's your job to do that.
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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaun View Post
    Ahh damn...

    That will teach me to think about these thing while at work rather then when i have the books infront of me.
    Yeah, the combo you're trying to pull off requires the Dragonmark of Storm and a Lightning Weapon, so you can slide enemies with your opportunity attacks/Warden's Fury interrupt.

    It's a pretty sweet combo, though. The first time I used it with my own Warden, the reaction I got from the GM was priceless.
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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Delcan View Post
    ...and also, the DM will probably be irritated with you for ruining their fun. But hey, you're a defender, it's your job to do that.
    hehe i had a Paladin in my last group that made it all most pointless for me to send any minions at the party.

    Was quite frustrating.

    The flail idea has peaked my interest tho, i havnt looked through MP yet i will have to take a look.
    Aside from "have fun", i think the key to GMing is putting your players into situations where they need to make a choice that has no perfect outcome available. They will hate you for it, but they will be back at the table session after session.

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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    Quote Originally Posted by Delcan View Post
    To add to the fun, see if your DM will let you apply a Staggering Weapon to the mix. Staggering Weapons add their enhancement bonus to the slide distance of any power that slides a target - if your DM reads Lashing Flail as modifying a melee basic attack (which is a power that every character has), enemy reach is no longer a problem.
    According to the PHB, the two basic attacks do count as powers.
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    Default Re: [4e] Threatening Reach

    The primary issue isn't MBA as a power, but rather what the feat does. As written, Lashing Flail says that whenever you hit with a melee basic attack, you slide the target 1 square; Staggering Weapons say that whenever you use a power that slides a target, you slide them an additional X squares. There's two ways you could read this:

    1. Lashing Flail makes the melee basic attack power slide 1 square, so Staggering Weapon applies.
    2. The Lashing Flail feat is what causes the slide, not the attack - since the power itself doesn't mention slides, Staggering doesn't apply.

    This could probably use an errata to clarify it... I just hope they clarify it in favor of slidey fighters.
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