[3.5] Salvaging Oriental Adventures

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've enjoyed the setting from this book, and have always wanted to do something with it, most likely taking the baseline setting and changing the names. However, I've wondered how well it would work in the modern era. It's a 3.0 book, and I'm not sure how to update it to 3.5, and improve it otherwise.

Some things in particular:

The Samurai: This character class is a bone of contention if what I've seen on this forum is true. The Complete Warrior version apparently is utter garbage, but what about the one presented in the sourcebook? It seems similar to the Kensai prestige class from Complete Warrior in that the biggest draw about the class is the ability to enchant your own weapons. I know the simplest idea would be to use the fighter, but in OA that seems to mostly be for ronin.

The Shugenja: How does this class fare? Which is better, the Complete Divine version or the Oriental Adventures version?

Taint Mechanics: Which one to use? The one from Oriental Adventures, Unearthed Arcana or Heroes of Horror?

Ninja: How to best represent this? The Ninja Spy prestige class from the book? The Ninja base class from Complete Adventurer? Some other way?

I'm not certain how well I'd be able to run an Oriental Adventures style campaign, since I'm not too sure of the rules and I'm uncertain of how well I'd be able to accurately represent the Japanese culture.

[Boci]

The samurai can be a warblade (possibly with this modification I made http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100415 assuming homebrew is okay), ninja can be a swordsage, and shugenja was updated to 3.5 in complete divine, but there are some differences between their competence based on which element you choose. As for taint mechanics, I like the Heroes of Horror ones best, because I find them the most creative, and getting taint is not uncurable.

[Window459]

Well what me and my group usually do is when someone wants to play a samurai we suggest that they play the knight class from phb II and just say there a samurai usually giving them diasho prof. with that ever weapon they want, and if they don't wanna used the shield block class feature I let them take fighter bonus feats instead.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, Dragon 318 has 3.5 updates of various OA things, if you weren't aware of that. It makes Eunuch Warlocks (AFAIK the only prestige class that requires entrants to be male) actually playable, if still somewhat suboptimal.

[Deth Muncher]

There's also the official update on their site.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Incidentally, Dragon 318 has 3.5 updates of various OA things, if you weren't aware of that. It makes Eunuch Warlocks (AFAIK the only prestige class that requires entrants to be male) actually playable, if still somewhat suboptimal.

What made it unplayable as is?

[Zaydos]

Eunuch Warlock was a spellcasting PrC that instead of progressing spellcasting just gave you bonus spells. WotC realized that was a bad idea.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That would do it, wouldn't it.

So, I was pondering just using the samurai from OA with the 3.5 updates from the magazine. How well do you think that'll work?

[Boci]

That would do it, wouldn't it.

So, I was pondering just using the samurai from OA with the 3.5 updates from the magazine. How well do you think that'll work?

Its a fighter who trades some feats for a better will save and class ability whose use depends a lot on the game. Probably the same tier as the fighter, so it could work.

[awa]

edit ninja (also minor clarification)
it was insanely bad. (eunuch warlock) The samurai is comparable to a fighter you lose one feat and some feat choices and have a code of conduct (if i recall correctly im away from my books) but you have a better will save and more skill points not a bad trade. they also get the free masterwork weapons at level 1. At the low end of optimization where a fighter looks like a good idea they are a fine class.

personally I barely count the samurai the samurai code against it if you want to play a dishonorable samurai just play a fighter their pretty similar.

So in conclusion samurai are fine if fighters are fine.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Codes of Conduct are fine if you have a player who knows how to roleplay half-way decently.

I wasn't really planning on having Eunuch Warlocks available to player characters anyway, since I never allow evil PCs.

So in short the samurai is basically decent as long as the game doesn't let the casters dominate, which I think I can do.

So what about ninjas? How does the Ninja Spy PRC compare to the CA base class, or any other kind of ninja-based classes or PRCs? My personal thought was to just have ninjas be available via prestige classes like the Ninja Spy or Ghost-Faced Killer, and have them start as rogues, but I don't know how effective that may be.

I'm thinking I'll use the Shugenja from Complete Divine. That seems to be pretty solid, from what I'm reading here.

How do the other classes from the book hold up, like the Sohei, Wu Jen, Shaman and the various OA prestige classes? Perhaps I should've just asked how the book is as a whole, it probably would have gotten most of my questions answered more quickly.

The complex intricacies of class mechanics and balance are all but impossible for me to grasp.

[Boci]

How do the other classes from the book hold up, like the Sohei, Wu Jen, Shaman and the various OA prestige classes? Perhaps I should've just asked how the book is as a whole, it probably would have gotten most of my questions answered more quickly.

The complex intricacies of class mechanics and balance are all but impossible for me to grasp.

IIRC the only powerful classes in OA are the Wu-Gen and the Shaman, both being tier 2. Everything else is either tier 3 or 4.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't remember the ninja base class from OA, but sice AFAIK the ninja in CAdv is the updated version of the one in OA by RAW you should use the one in CAdv.

Either way I think that fluff-wise you should use rogues and base class ninjas as the foot soldiers from the clans (Iga & Koga being the most famous) and use the prestige class as higher steps in the hierarchy of the clan.

Maybe all the different prestige classes in the books are part of the same clan but each different class shows a different type of specialization.

[awa]

i don't know much about the other ninja but i was never overly impressed with the ninja spy class personally i would just give them all those exotic weapons except for the spiked chain (which a focused ninja spy wont get all that much use out of) none of them are very useful in anything but the most unusual situations.

Im no expert on optimization but the sohei is on the weak side it seems a bit unfocused but it's better then a monk. It can hold its own with a unoptimized fighter but most of it's abilities are rather lousy.

the shamans a full caster with an animal companion even with it's small spell list it will dominate martial characters but not to the degree the tier ones will.

In fact as a broad statement id say that sums up all the full caster in the book their better then martial characters but the fact that their spell lists are so limited means their weaker then wizards or clerics.

[Zaydos]

Sohei's Ki Frenzy is rather like the Whirling Frenzy variant from Unearthed Arcana, except the bonuses are a little lower (only +2 to Str and Dex, no save bonus). They eventually reduce the penalty on the extra attack but that's not much. If you want to use them get the update, though, it moves up a few feats and gives them Greater and Mighty Frenzy keeping them closer on par with barbarians (it also speeds up their DR). Plus they get spells... not sure what these spells do but they exist. Other high points are that they get Mettle. Their feats are still a little random but they really aren't the high point of the class. That would be their slightly worse rage variant with a wee bit of casting. The problem though is a 3/4ths BAB progression which leaves them a worse version of the barbarian. If they had full BAB they might be decent.

There is no Ninja base class in OA, but CA has one as does the same Dragon Magazine that updated OA. It wears no armor, has some Ki powers (invisibility), and an inferior version of sneak attack. From a game mechanic point of view rogue is pretty much strictly better, but the ninja class is good if you want your ninjas to have a semi-mystical feel.

I guess I can see how Shaman is tier 2; it's a full caster and it's not the healer; plus it has an animal companion. Since it's not one of the Big 5 it doesn't get spells in every book leaving it with a reduced cleric spell list and worse armor and melee capabilities. It does get a druid's animal companion to make up though which is a big boon. I've only seen them played twice, once in 3.0 in a 1st level adventure alongside a Wu Jen and a Wizard; I was the Shaman and had decided I was against killing. Despite this I was able to contribute in combat via my medium viper and it was pretty fun but after that session I decided that with that party a pacifist didn't work out and changed to a 2nd Wu Jen. The other was a long running campaign and my little brother made a shaman/ninja but refused to take a theurge class unless it gave ninja's high level abilities and animal companion and casting and sudden strike progression; he also chose a - Wis race as a Wis based caster whose AC was also based on Wis. Even without that it had worse spells than a cleric but he was quickly made worse by his low casting level. So I'd say shamans are bad but I'm rather biased.

Wu Jen... I know one got ran on a one-shot of mine and he was pretty much played as a blaster mage. I don't know their list but while it has some fun spells and apparently a few really powerful ones (body out of body or something like that) but I've always heard their list is worse than a wizard's. Get some neat elemental options, though, which makes them a possible choice for an elementalist. Oh yes, no school specialization hurts their power level but they're still a full caster.

OA Samurai? Don't know; I just use Knight, Paladin, Warblade or Fighter and RP it. Last time I had a samurai NPC he was a duel-wielding paladin.

Shugenja? No idea, never ran one.

[faceroll]

Codes of Conduct are fine if you have a player who knows how to roleplay half-way decently.

And a halfway decent DM.

[Darrin]

There's also the official update on their site.

Be aware that there are errata changes in Dragon #318 that were not included in the OA Web errata.

[Rhavin]

If you can find the Rokugan sourcebook for D20, they have a ninja base class that still uses sneak attack rather than sudden strike and they have some extra monk prestige classes that are pretty decent. For the rest, the classes will work together pretty well if you limit availability of other stuff. Most of OA is intended to work independently from the general phb stuff. Shugenjas replace wizards (or clerics not sure which), Shamans replace druids etc.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And a halfway decent DM.

I consider myself to be so.

If you can find the Rokugan sourcebook for D20, they have a ninja base class that still uses sneak attack rather than sudden strike and they have some extra monk prestige classes that are pretty decent.

I haven't heard of such a sourcebook. What's it called?

For the rest, the classes will work together pretty well if you limit availability of other stuff.

Like what?

Most of OA is intended to work independently from the general phb stuff. Shugenjas replace wizards (or clerics not sure which), Shamans replace druids etc.

I'm well aware of this (Shugenjas are meant to replace clerics, since they're divine spellcasters).

[jiriku]

An important thing to keep in mind is that 3.0 Oriental Adventures and especially the Rokugan Campaign Setting are d20 ports of AEG's Legend of the Five Rings game. L5R has a much lower power level than D&D, and accordingly the ports of the L5R classes (courtier, monk, samurai, ninja, shugenja) are all low-power classes. You'll notice that RCS bans the wu-jen and shaman, the two high-power outliers among the Asian-themed classes.

If you use only the RCS-recommended classes, the game should hang together quite well without the need for ANY significant changes. You don't have a balance issue when everyone is playing a Tier 4 or Tier 5 class. It's simply important to keep in mind that Rokugan game is much more like old-school D&D, in that players are never intended to gain phenomenal cosmic power.

Alternately, AEG has just released the 4th edition L5R rules. I contributed to the playtest, and I'll plug it here and say it's a fun system, although not without its quirks (shugenja have balance issues). You could pick up a copy of 3rd edition or 4th edition L5R and play in Rokugan quite happily.

[Rhavin]

I think its the Oriental Adventures Rokugan Sourcebook or some variant thereof. Your OA book has references to the Rokugan Empire in it, the setting book has more information on each of the clans etc. It is old though, AEG has developed their own rpg system and haven't supported the D20 version for a long time.

What I meant by limiting other stuff is to basically just use the classes from OA since they are largely supposed to replace the classical phb classes.

[Zen Monkey]

Honestly, if you like the feel of the setting, play Legend of the Five Rings. The Oriental Adventures book was an attempt to force the square peg of L5R into the round hole of D&D. It just doesn't fit right. L5R is a more lethal setting, with open-ended (or 'exploding') dice, one healing spell, and no resurrection spells. This means that there is always a chance to do something heroic, no matter who you are, or to be killed if you aren't careful. Also, there is a much better balance between classes that focus on melee or spells.

[true_shinken]

This books is very, very good. It's not like 'salvaging', it's just so good.
It's one of very few good melee resources before ToB.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'll look into the L5R game then. Though I feel like it'd probably be Rokugan in name only. I've planned on telling my own story that bears some resemblance to the setting, but is somewhat different.

The main plot is that the Empire is forged when the PCs attempt to unite the warring clans against the menace of the Shadowlands, the Imperial Throne being given to one of the PCs for their heroism and foresight against the Taint of Evil.

[jiriku]

4th edition is definitely worth your time then, as the designers have made a concerted effort in that edition to include lots of fluff for various time periods in Rokugan and to get away from the assumption that you're playing close to the canon historical timeline. It's also added a bunch of sidebars with optional rules you can use to tweak the balance and feel of the game to your preferences.

And because I contributed to the editing process, the core book has FAR fewer grammar and spelling errors than is usual for an AEG product.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm having trouble finding the 4th Edition. Most of the bookstores I've looked at that carry RPG books appear to be choked with 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've uncovered a copy of the Third Edition of L5R. What are the differences between it and L5R 4E?