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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Montreal, Canada

    Default Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Question concerning the martial study and martial stance feats from Tome of Battle

    first, what level do you need to be to take the assassin's stance through a feat if you never take initiator levels ? (assassin's stance is rated Swordsage 3 so if I use half my character level that means level 6 right? assuming I took martial study beforehand to qualify)

    Can I take the Daring Outlaw feat without any rogue levels using assassin's stance to meet the requirements? (possibly giving the swashbuckler more sneak attack damage than a standard rogue)

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    USA
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    Intersex

    Default Re: Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    Question concerning the martial study and martial stance feats from Tome of Battle

    first, what level do you need to be to take the assassin's stance through a feat if you never take initiator levels ? (assassin's stance is rated Swordsage 3 so if I use half my character level that means level 6 right? assuming I took martial study beforehand to qualify)
    Assassin's Stance is a 3rd-level stance. As such, it requires an Initiator Level of 5. Because your IL is half for non-martial adept classes, you need to be level 10 to take Assassin's Stance via Martial Study.



    As for your other question, ask your DM. Some will let you qualify, others will not.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    tyckspoon's Avatar

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    Nov 2007
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    Indianapolis
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    Default Re: Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    Can I take the Daring Outlaw feat without any rogue levels using assassin's stance to meet the requirements? (possibly giving the swashbuckler more sneak attack damage than a standard rogue)
    By strict RAW, yes- the feat requires Sneak Attack to qualify, not rogue levels, and you get that from Assassin's Stance, so you're good to go. Many DMs bar or are at best very suspicious of this kind of bypass of obvious RAI, however, so you may get accused of severe munchkinry if you bring it to the table without running it by your DM first.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2010
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    ganiseville GA
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    Default Re: Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Yes, by RAW you can use assasin's stance to gain dareing outline. You would loose all benifits when not in assasin's stance though, as you would loose the pre-reqs for the feat.

    Also levels of stances are the same as levels of spells. You don't get 3rd level spells at wizard 3, you get it at 5th.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    May 2006
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    Sunnydale

    Default Re: Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Many DMs bar or are at best very suspicious of this kind of bypass of obvious RAI, however, so you may get accused of severe munchkinry if you bring it to the table without running it by your DM first.
    Let's examine this a bit more closely, shall we?

    To obtain Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) without martial initiator levels you'll need to be at least level 10. Swashbuckler doesn't have any user-selectable bonus feats so you'll have to wait at least until level 12 for your next general-purpose feat; at that time you would gain 2d6 sneak attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Assassin's Stance
    If you already have the sneak attack class feature, your existing sneak attack ability deals an extra 2d6 points of damage.
    Since you don't have the sneak attack class feature, that's all you get.

    Then you'll need to wait for another feat to select Daring Outlaw after you satisfy the sneak attack prerequisite: that's level 15. This would net you the benefits of the feat, including 8d6 sneak attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daring Outlaw
    Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attack, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.
    As a 15th level Swashbuckler/0th level Rogue you would obtain +8d6 sneak attack as if you were a 15th level Rogue. However, the Rogue sneak attack ability doesn't include language stating it will stack with other sneak attack, so it will replace the +2d6 sneak attack of Assassin's Stance. (As noted above, Assassin's Stance will only stack with existing sneak attack from a class feature. Since your sneak attack is from a feat rather than a class feature, and doesn't exist when you select Assassin's Stance, there's no stacking from that, either.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    Can I take the Daring Outlaw feat without any rogue levels using assassin's stance to meet the requirements? (possibly giving the swashbuckler more sneak attack damage than a standard rogue)
    This scheme is really quite powerful, netting you 8d6 sneak attack for 3 feats. But it doesn't kick in until level 15, and it will never give you more sneak attack damage than a pure Rogue.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: Martial stance feat + daring outlaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    This scheme is really quite powerful, netting you 8d6 sneak attack for 3 feats. But it doesn't kick in until level 15, and it will never give you more sneak attack damage than a pure Rogue.
    Most DMs who allow it will also just stack the damage for a total of 12d6 at Swashbuckler 19 / Swordsage 1, because they do not look at RAW that closely, or are not bothered.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-30 at 07:18 PM.
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