How many Kobolds in a CR5 encounter?

[Scarey Nerd]

I'm guessing the answer isn't 20, because of the weird CR system.

Kobolds = CR 1/4

Help appreciated

[Dr.Epic]

I'm guessing the answer isn't 20, because of the weird CR system.

You mean 20 is too low right because at level five they could just plow through them. I would say 100 or if you want less give them some levels.

[WinWin]

4 makes CR 1. Every doubling adds 2 to the CR if memory serves. So 8 would be CR 3, 16 would be CR 5.

[Scarey Nerd]

You mean 20 is too low right because at level five they could just plow through them. I would say 100 or if you want less give them some levels.

Yeah, 20 would be ridiculously easy. Having said that, I pitted my 6 level 4 PCs against 7 dire rats and it took about a 1/2 hour to kill them

[Arbitrarity]

4 kobolds is EL 1, because that's how CR's less than 1 work. Then, double that (8) is EL 3. Double that again, it's EL 5. So 16.
Basically, less than CR 1, multiply until you hit one. So 1/4 -> 1 is 4 times as many. Then, after that, every doubling of creatures is CR +2.
Curses, Shadow Hand Swordsages!

[Jack Zander]

However the rules say that if you use more than 12 creatures in an encounter they probably won't be a challenge no matter how many you add.

If you want your party to face kobolds past level 4, use Tucker's Kobolds.

[Temotei]

Tucker's Kobolds.

Which are essentially normal kobolds with preparedness and at least fair intelligence, in a nutshell.

You could also give them class levels, though. Make a couple sorcerers, a few rogues, a few fighters, and some clerics. That should fill out the opponent party nicely.

[WinWin]

The CR system is not really designed for large numbers of creatures. If you want a more challenging encounter, add in some traps or a kobold with class levels.

Also:
http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

Great link. (Will remove if it is a problem).

[Scarey Nerd]

Which are essentially normal kobolds with preparedness and at least fair intelligence, in a nutshell.

Don't worry, in my world Kobolds are scheming little creatures, and whilst aren't fantastic in combat they set a good trap. And my PCs don't have a rogue...

[Dr.Epic]

Yeah, 20 would be ridiculously easy. Having said that, I pitted my 6 level 4 PCs against 7 dire rats and it took about a 1/2 hour to kill them

What? They're level 4 and there's 6 of them and it took them that long to kill them? At level 4, each party member should be able to take down a puny dire rat in one turn, not to mention I think by then wizards, sorcerers, and other full casters have spells that can affect multiple foes.

[Scarey Nerd]

What? They're level 4 and there's 6 of them and it took them that long to kill them? At level 4, each party member should be able to take down a puny dire rat in one turn, not to mention I think by then wizards, sorcerers, and other full casters have spells that can affect multiple foes.

A combination of bad rolls by the PCs, good rolls by me, and the party lacking AoE spells.

[2xMachina]

16 all with the Draconic ritual.

Eat 4 Power Word Pain each!.

[Snake-Aes]

16 sounds the correct number, but I question how powerful would that really be. A level 6 character more than likely can one-hit them every now and then, so half of the kobolds would die before their second round. And if the fireball comes first, before initiative is rolled.

You really want them to act cunning instead. They know to hit and run, their lair has traps(good traps, not lame traps. Talking about the stuff that will make your players say HOLY CRAP even if it won't kill them instantly), put a couple lvl 1 sorcerers there too.

[QuantumSteve]

2 CR 1s is a CR 2 not 3, so 24 CR 1/4s would be a CR 5, but, as pointed out, this many low CR creatures doesn't scale appropriately. I would add some traps (just add thier CR to the encounter) and mabye a few classed Kobolds.
F.Y.I. A Kobold Sorcerer 1 would be a CR 1/3.

Also, check out this Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon for some typical Kobold traps complete with CR.

[gbprime]

The answer to how many kobolds in CR5 depends on a few factors.

(A) How many of the PC's have Cleave or Rapid Shot, and can they cast Haste?

PCs with multiple attacks each round have an easier time plowing through masses of low level foes.

(B) Are the Kobolds wandering along, or defending a prepared position?

A prepared position with things like alchemist's fire for throwing, cover behind which you can stand and shoot, higher ground, etc makes low level foes last longer, giving them time to inflict more damage.

(C) Is there a sorcerer with the kobolds?

A 3rd level sorcerer with fireburst, magic missile, and obscuring mist can make a royal mess of any melee.

[Mikeavelli]

4 makes CR 1. Every doubling adds 2 to the CR if memory serves. So 8 would be CR 3, 16 would be CR 5.

Eh? The CR system is the one place in D&D where you use normal math, not D&D math.

4 Kobolds is CR 1, 8 Kobolds is a CR 2 encounter.

Double the CR 2 encounter to get a CR 3 encounter, 16 Kobolds

double that to get a CR 4 encounter, 32

double that to get a CR 5 encounter, 64.

The formula still breaks down after about two doublings though, so take everyone else's advice and just give them traps or class levels.

[Jack Zander]

Eh? The CR system is the one place in D&D where you use normal math, not D&D math.

4 Kobolds is CR 1, 8 Kobolds is a CR 2 encounter.

Double the CR 2 encounter to get a CR 3 encounter, 16 Kobolds

double that to get a CR 4 encounter, 32

double that to get a CR 5 encounter, 64.

The formula still breaks down after about two doublings though, so take everyone else's advice and just give them traps or class levels.

Where are you reading this? It's always been that you add 2 to the CR when you double the number of creatures. Maybe creatures less than CR 1 act different though. I know the rules get confusing then.

[Ravens_cry]

If you want to make this fun, but still a straight up fight, give them class levels. That will give them some durability and unexpected options.

[jiriku]

You cannot get any number of standard kobolds to CR 5. 12 kobolds or 120 kobolds will still be CR 4 and no higher. As WinWin suggested, the only way to get kobolds to CR 5+ is to give them class levels (or templates) or to add traps (remember that traps have their own CR and contribute to EL just as if they were monsters).

I'd recommend both. If it's useful to you, I happen to have a kobold stat block or two lying around from a Tucker-ish kobold encounter I built. The encounter was for much higher-level PCs, but you could trim it pretty easily by cutting back on the gear the kobolds are carrying. Or not.

Kobold Sniper (CR 2) (note: stat block is adjusted because the snipers are assumed to be firing from murder holes or removable panels in the ceiling. As such, they gain the benefits of improved cover and higher ground. Additionally, they use kobold rogue racial substitution levels and some rogue alternate class features)

Spoiler

Show

This humanoid is about the size of a gnome or halfling. It has a scaly hide, a naked tail like that of a rat, and a doglike head with two small horns.
Kobold sniper CR 2
Kobold rogue 3
Alternate Class Features
Lose trap sense, improved trap sense, evasion, d6 hit die at levels 1, 3
Gain spell dodge, spell deflection, d4 hit die at levels 1, 3
LE Small humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, Listen +7, Spot +7
Languages Draconic
Environmental Effects

Hiding (Spot DC 41)
Higher Ground (+1 to hit)
Improved Cover (+8 AC, +4 Reflex saves, +10 Hide checks, Improved Evasion)

----------------------------------------
AC 29, touch 24 flat-footed 24; Special spell dodge +2
(+1 size, +5 Dex, +3 armor, +1 natural armor, +1 shield, +8 cover)
hp 13 (3 HD)
Fort +1, Ref +8 (+12), Will +2; Special Improved Evasion
----------------------------------------
Speed 30 ft, withdraw 70 ft (rapid retreat)
Space 5 ft; Reach 5 ft
Base Atk +2; Grp -2
----------------------------------------
Attacks
Tanglefoot Bag (standard) +10 ranged touch (entangled and Ref DC 15 or immobilized)
Acid Flask (standard) +10 ranged touch (1d6 acid)
Shortbow (standard, close range) +11 (lucky) ranged (1d6+2/x3)
Shortbow (full-round, close range) +9/+9 (lucky) ranged (1d6+2/x3)
Atk Options point blank shot +1 (included), rapid shot, sneak attack +2d6, spell deflection (immediate action), spell dodge +2
-----------------------------------------
Abilities (32 point buy) Str 10, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Skills Balance +11, Climb +3, Escape Artist +19, Hide +21 (+31), Listen +7, Move Silently +11, Spot +7, Swim +3, Tumble +11
Possessions camouflage gear (mwk Hide tool), mwk studded leather, mwk buckler, 2 tanglefoot bags, 6 acid flasks, small shortbow, 6 +1 lucky arrows (silver), 6 +1 lucky arrows (cold iron), 6 +1 lucky arrows (adamantine)
-----------------------------------------

COMBAT
Kobold snipers always attack from cover, preferably from ambush. They open with a volley of tanglefoot bags to lock their opponents in place while other kobolds spring traps on them, then switch to their shortbows against unarmored targets, or acid flasks if targets are armored.
Kobold snipers attempt to remain hidden while sniping (see the Hide skill for details), and retreat if opponents provide determined resistance or find a means of defeating their cover.

[Machiavellian]

I actually say 5 kobolds (maybe 3 with class lvs to boost the CR) and a couple CR6 or so "leader types" such as Lizardfolk or maybe "Corrupted Dragonborn," who follow Tiamat instead of Bahamut. All you do is take a 5th/6th level Human X and add Dragonborn. Stir in some cheap and junky Enchanted weapons on these Corrupted Dragonborns and voila! A fun encounter that makes your PCs jump slightly.

And for added fun, make it a rope bridge, with the Corrupted Dragonborn/Lizardfolk acting like an Officer, the kobolds launching fire arrows to try and burn the rope bridge. This adds challenge because it isn't just a room of monsters anymore. Now there's an environmental hazard to contend with.

Trust me, I used a similar tactic in my last campaign: a 3.5 Underdark campaign. The PCs were in a Dwarven Necropolis where there was a chasm full of Otyugs with but a single rope bridge across. The goblins, lead by an Eye of Gruumsh, were launching fire arrows not at the PCs, but at the bridge, since the Ranger earlier in the day had killed the Hobgoblin Captian. Now forced to retreat, the Orc had them attempt to burn the bridge to cut off the pursuers. However, the fighter, who was a leap attacker, leapt across the chasm (miracle nat20 on his jump check. he wore only Leather Armor. The cheap jerk) and stopped the archers from burning the bridge.

So there you go: a tough encounter keeping with the reptile/dragon theme and still doable for 85-95% of all players.

[Tyndmyr]

However the rules say that if you use more than 12 creatures in an encounter they probably won't be a challenge no matter how many you add.

If you want your party to face kobolds past level 4, use Tucker's Kobolds.

They won't be a challenge, but the players might still use a bit of resources on them. A fireball, for instance.

TBH, equal CR fights are usually not a huge challenge...they just require a bit of resource expenditure.

[Machiavellian]

They won't be a challenge, but the players might still use a bit of resources on them. A fireball, for instance.

TBH, equal CR fights are usually not a huge challenge...they just require a bit of resource expenditure.

Hence my idea. You use Terrain to make the Kobolds a greater threat than normal

and plus, Kobolds in what I think the spirit of what they are in 3.5 are the equivelant to 4e minions: they are mooks ready to be slaughtered by the hundreds. Meant to keep the PCs away from the BBEG or Psuedo-BBEG, not as the "criminal masterminds." That is a position reserved for Illithid, Aboleths, Beholders, Wizards, and Drow. And the occasional Orc