Easy way to ballance 3.5?

[Maho-Tsukai]

I am planing to make a re-worked version of 3.5 with some minor changes to fix the balance issues but before I make an official write up with nice grammar and a pretty layout for the homebrew forum, I want some opinions on the general idea of the system. The basic premise is to put everybody at tier 3, the "balanced" tier, thus creating a game that is balanced yet can still be suitably epic at the same time. To do this I would make the following changes:

Ban all tier 1 and 2 classes except the wizard and the cleric. The wizard and Cleric lose prepared casting and gain the spells known and spells per day of the "spellcaster" generic class.(They still use their original casting stats.) The cleric can no longer spontaneously convert his spells to heals/inflicts and loses both his domain spell slots and his domain spells. He still gains the granted power of his domains. The wizard/sorcerer spell list and the cleric spell list are taken out of the game/no longer exist. Instead Wizards can chose their spells known from any of the following lists... Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage. Clerics can chose spells from the following spell lists: Healer(Gate is removed from the healer spell list.), Dread Necromancer. The Dread Necromancer and any other class which can chose spells from their list uses my "fixed" dread necro spell list in the homebrew forum. The fighter, rogue and other classes below tier 3 are also removed/non-existent and the spell lists of the healer and Warmage classes only remain as lists from which the cleric and wizard can draw spells known from.

So is this feasible or is it still not work?

[Snake-Aes]

Any single spell is already enough to put casters ahead of noncasters.

[Boci]

Replacing melee with ToB and rogue's with factotums and beguilers is generally seen as a good move for game balance. As far as casters go, I'm currently trying to get a full set of advanced learner classes to complete the beguiler and dread necro so that every school of magic has its place in the game, but without being OP. this is harder for clerics, but i considered deviding them based on the Shugenja's four elements.

Any single spell is already enough to put casters ahead of noncasters.

No, otherwise there wouldn't be any tier 3 full casters.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, full casters are ahead of non-casters. That's the point of this fix. Everything is essentially a "caster" so to speak. Melee fighters use TOB, "rogues" are beguilers and factotums. Every class has some form of "spells." My main question is if clerics and wizards can be put on tier 3 by replacing their spell lists with being able to chose from select, thematically and functionally appropriate spell-lists of tier 3-4 classes, giving them the spells known/spells per day of the spellcaster generic class and taking away some overpowered class abilities(domain spells, for example.) This fix would give them more options then the stanbard tier 3 caster classes, but they have less spells per-day then them and far less class abilities. I was also considering reducing the number of bonus feats wizards get or outright taking the bonus feats away, but I am not sure if this is needed.

[Snake-Aes]

No, otherwise there wouldn't be any tier 3 full casters.

Oh, ok, nevermind, forget that the only noncasters past T3 are the ToB classes.

[Boci]

Yeah, full casters are ahead of non-casters. That's the point of this fix. Everything is essentially a "caster" so to speak. Melee fighters use TOB, "rogues" are beguilers and factotums. Every class has some form of "spells." My main question is if clerics and wizards can be put on tier 3 by replacing their spell lists with being able to chose from select, thematically and functionally appropriate spell-lists of tier 3-4 classes, giving them the spells known/spells per day of the spellcaster generic class and taking away some overpowered class abilities(domain spells, for example.)

Isn't that a sorceror (tier 2) with without the delayed spell progression?

[Maho-Tsukai]

I thought the spellcaster had the same spell progression as the sorcerer, but with less spells per day. So if they don't that's a mistake by me and the wizard and cleric would use the sorcerer spell progression but with one-two less spells per-day of each level then the sorcerer. Also, by taking away the wizard/sorc and cleric lists, clerics and wizards lose most of their broken spells. It's basically a goobye to polymorph, gate, shapechange, wish ect....and in the end it's the broken spells that made the classes so powerful, not the classes themselves.

[QuantumSteve]

If you want to balance every class across every level, playing 4th is really your best option. That or some kind of hybrid that keeps the parts you like most about 3.5.

If you're fine with the concept of "Quadratic Wizards", then just stop at lv 12-15, before Wizards "Quadratic" all over your campaign. Only a handful of Core spells are really in need of tweaking. And you can always give melee characters "spells" of their own with ToB. Really, 3.5 isn't that unbalanced across most levels if you don't go looking for ways to unbalance it.

And if you really hate Wizards. Make them start at Lv 1 and make their lives suck until they gain enough levels to actually contribute to the party.

[Tinydwarfman]

If you're fine with the concept of "Quadratic Wizards", then just stop at lv 12-15, before Wizards "Quadratic" all over your campaign. Only a handful of Core spells are really in need of tweaking. And you can always give melee characters "spells" of their own with ToB. Really, 3.5 isn't that unbalanced across most levels if you don't go looking for ways to unbalance it.

Uh, wizards get quadratic at 7th. 4th level spells are freaking godly.

[QuantumSteve]

Uh, wizards get quadratic at 7th. 4th level spells are freaking godly.

They're good, sure. They're what a Wizard gets for being an XP sponge for his first 5 levels. Lv 7 is the big payoff where a Wizard starts getting better than everyone else. I don't see them getting really game breaking until 6 level spells.

[Critical]

Options:
1. Everyone plays casters.
2. No one plays casters.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I suppose I could scrap the idea of giving wizards and clerics the ability to chose from several tier 3-4 spell lists and instead give them their own spell lists based on the shugenja spell list but missing some elements. I can see a wizard spell list drawing from air, fire, Earth and Maho, and clerics drawing from water and Maho. Also, I stated that the goal of this is that everybody plays a "caster." I am just looking for ways to make the wizard and cleric tier 3s to match the TOB classes and(which are basicly casters) tier 3 casters.

Likewise, I could simply not try and make the cleric and wizard tier 3 and just use the shugenja to fill both the cleric and wizard roll. I however would refluff them as either cloth wearing priests of elemental deities or elemental mages. Magic in the world would thus be based on elemental schools of magic. In fact, I could actually do away with the original schools all together and have the "schools" of magic be the elements. The more narrow casters like DNs and beguilers would be refluffed to have power over one type of element to such a degree where they gain powers associated with it that no ordinary mage could ever hope to have. Beguilers would be air specialists and DNs would be dark(Maho) specialists. Maho unlike OA would be a full shugenja elements rather then a school that can only be learned as an off element school. Maho would be refluffed as "Darkness" to fit into the elemental magic theme. Feats which apply to spell schools would instead be applied to one of the elements. In fact, this "elemental magic" idea could make for a very interesting setting, now that I think of it. As for bards? Well, I just would not include them as a playable class, espcially since a water shugenja can fill the healer roll, an earth shugenja can be a party buffer and a factotum or beguiler can be the skillmonkey.

[Yora]

Oh, ok, nevermind, forget that the only noncasters past T3 are the ToB classes.

And while ToB calls them maneuvers, they are still spells.

[Urpriest]

Beguilers, Warmages, and Dread Necros are generally seen as lower tier and less gamebreaking because of their lack of gamebreaking wizard spells, so I see this as a very reasonable direction to go in balancing the classes.

That said, you'd still be lacking representation for the Summoner archetype, not to mention perfectly reasonable Abjuration, Divination, and Transmutation (some class should be able to focus on arcane shapeshifting).

Wu Jen have a pretty limited list, and behave almost exactly like wizards. What tier are they considered?

Any plans for representing Psions and the like? They seem trickier to balance, and I wouldn't want to replace them all with Psychic Warriors.

[Fax Celestis]

See signature. Stir in parts you like. Sprinkle liberally with intelligent players who aren't douches. Garnish with victory. Serve.

[AmberVael]

See signature. Stir in parts you like.

Alternately, you can skip these two steps...

Sprinkle liberally with intelligent players who aren't douches. Garnish with victory. Serve.

And just go right to this.

Really, just get some players who know what they're doing, say "this is the power level I want," and you'll get a ton further than just trying to shove in a ton of new rules to the game (or carve them out).
(Edit: Er, this might come off like I'm insulting d20R. Not really my intention)

[Machiavellian]

How about you drop balance and just have fun. It's just a game. Like in the PbP Sands of Shandala, I'm planning on playing (if I reach 20)

Half-Hobgoblin (vistani instead of human)
Gladiator (KoK) 6/Warblade 6/Ronin 4/Suel Arcanamach 4

I use a bastard sword and shield. Who cares about balance when all you want is to have fun?

[Boci]

And while ToB calls them maneuvers, they are still spells.

I'll believe you when you show me a maneuver equivilant to 3 9th level core spells. Its a shame vatican casting came before ToB, made everyone thing that the system automatically = spells.

Alternately, you can skip these two steps...


And just go right to this.

Really, just get some players who know what they're doing, say "this is the power level I want," and you'll get a ton further than just trying to shove in a ton of new rules to the game (or carve them out).
(Edit: Er, this might come off like I'm insulting d20R. Not really my intention)

To be fair, as a player it helps to know exactly what you can and cannot use.

[jiriku]

I suppose I could scrap the idea of giving wizards and clerics the ability to chose from several tier 3-4 spell lists and instead give them their own spell lists ... drawing from air, fire, Earth and Maho....

Likewise, I could ... refluff them as ... elemental mages. Magic in the world would thus be based on elemental schools of magic ... In fact, this "elemental magic" idea could make for a very interesting setting, now that I think of it.

If you're interested in elemental magic, I may have just the thing for you. Fax also has many many well-developed options for you to consider, although you'll need to invest in learning d20r mechanics.

I'd recommend against giving the cleric or wizard the lists of lower-tier classes. Cleric and wizard are actually pretty dry, boring classes without their spell lists. Just use the classes that have those better-balanced lists in the first place (for example, don't play wizard with the beguiler or dread necro list -- play beguiler or dread necro!).

[Fax Celestis]

Er, this might come off like I'm insulting d20R. Not really my intention

It's cool, bro. I still love you.

[Kalrik]

I am still a fan of the gentleman's rule. If everyone cooperates, then the game won't be broken. That is how I've fixed the balance issues in my game. Yes, that PC wizard has the ability to break the game, but he won't because then it wouldn't be fun. MOST players won't go out of their way to optimize their charactes...if you have good players.

If you don't like having clerics that ruin the fun for a fighter, then tell your players that you don't approve and then ensure that their are no gods that grant clerics the melee domain options. In my world, teleportation is a long forgotten magic and cannot be learned unless it is found, even by sorcerers.

You are the GM and can do what you want, but retooling the core classes is a mistake, imo. I've found that, at least my players, respect you more when you are simply honest with them. Yes, this class/spells are powerful; dont' break it.

[Tyndmyr]

Ban all tier 1 and 2 classes except the wizard and the cleric. The wizard and Cleric lose prepared casting and gain the spells known and spells per day of the "spellcaster" generic class.(They still use their original casting stats.) The cleric can no longer spontaneously convert his spells to heals/inflicts and loses both his domain spell slots and his domain spells. He still gains the granted power of his domains. The wizard/sorcerer spell list and the cleric spell list are taken out of the game/no longer exist. Instead Wizards can chose their spells known from any of the following lists... Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage. Clerics can chose spells from the following spell lists: Healer(Gate is removed from the healer spell list.), Dread Necromancer. The Dread Necromancer and any other class which can chose spells from their list uses my "fixed" dread necro spell list in the homebrew forum. The fighter, rogue and other classes below tier 3 are also removed/non-existent and the spell lists of the healer and Warmage classes only remain as lists from which the cleric and wizard can draw spells known from.

So is this feasible or is it still not work?

You pretty much failed at "ban all..." It's such a sweeping set of changes that it's really not worth doing at all.

It's so much easier to just make sure your players all pick classes of roughly equal power levels, and perhaps toss a few bonuses to whoever picked the lowest tier class.

[lord_khaine]

Alternately, you can skip these two steps...

Quote:
Sprinkle liberally with intelligent players who aren't douches. Garnish with victory. Serve.

I agree with Vael, the imbalance is a bit overestimated, and if you let people use ToB classes then i really dont think you will have any problems.

[Boci]

You pretty much failed at "ban all..." It's such a sweeping set of changes that it's really not worth doing at all.

I dunno. I always felt that one of the strengths of 3.5 is that you can ban all core classes and still have a perfectly (arguably better) functioning game.
And for some, mass banning makes sense, like my game set in Trippyverse Fallout.

[Doug Lampert]

They're good, sure. They're what a Wizard gets for being an XP sponge for his first 5 levels. Lv 7 is the big payoff where a Wizard starts getting better than everyone else. I don't see them getting really game breaking until 6 level spells.

XP spunge? Seriously?

At level 1 your CROSSBOW is barely worse than other character's attacks, and you also get 5 spells per day without specializing, spending a feat, or scribing a scroll. The spells available include Grease, Charm Person, Hypnotize, Sleep, Color Spray.

Every one of the above is a potential encounter winner at level 1.

You also get Enlarge Person and Magic Weapon, both of which are non-negligable buffs.

At level 5, when you're claiming he's STILL an XP spunge he has haste, invisibility, and all the basic buffs. Not to mention that if he feels the insane urge to blast he's got fireball and fly.

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno. I always felt that one of the strengths of 3.5 is that you can ban all core classes and still have a perfectly (arguably better) functioning game.
And for some, mass banning makes sense, like my game set in Trippyverse Fallout.

That's a strength, sure. There's so much available in D&D that even a small subset of it is plenty for a game.

Still, his changes are not "an easy way to balance 3.5". Saying to his players "we're aiming for a tier 3 game here" would be much easier, and likely a lot easier for them to work with.

[Boci]

That's a strength, sure. There's so much available in D&D that even a small subset of it is plenty for a game.

Still, his changes are not "an easy way to balance 3.5". Saying to his players "we're aiming for a tier 3 game here" would be much easier, and likely a lot easier for them to work with.

"We're aiming for a tier 3 game here" is the same as "No tier 1, 2, 5 and 6 classes" only the latter is more absolute. Plus he seemed to be keen to preserve the different schools of magic, which was why I recommend doing something similar to what I am trying to do.

[Tyndmyr]

The difference is, you can build characters in such a way as to make them fit into a given tier.

Imagine a wizard, focus specialized in enchantment. Bans conjuration, abjuration and illusion. Grabs toughness so he'll have a few extra hp early on. Yeah, the power level of that wizard is going to be significantly different from optimized wizard builds. It won't be a bad character, but it will probably work nicely in a tier 3 group.

If you tell your players what the goal is, and work with them, you shouldn't NEED to do massive bans.

[Emmerask]

ninja´d

[Boci]

The difference is, you can build characters in such a way as to make them fit into a given tier.

Imagine a wizard, focus specialized in enchantment. Bans conjuration, abjuration and illusion. Grabs toughness so he'll have a few extra hp early on. Yeah, the power level of that wizard is going to be significantly different from optimized wizard builds. It won't be a bad character, but it will probably work nicely in a tier 3 group.

If you tell your players what the goal is, and work with them, you shouldn't NEED to do massive bans.

Good point. How the hell did I not think of that?