What is a nova?

[shadmere]

I've seen the term around this site a lot, and while I assume it means "a lot of explosions and damage out the ears," I haven't actually seen an explanation.

I tried Googling and failed that too, annoyingly enough.

So what exactly is a nova?

[Snake-Aes]

I've seen the term around this site a lot, and while I assume it means "a lot of explosions and damage out the ears," I haven't actually seen an explanation.

I tried Googling and failed that too, annoyingly enough.

So what exactly is a nova?

Novas are stars that ejects some of its material in the form of a cloud and become more luminous in the process.


The "Going Nova" expression is an allusion to that accelerating reaction. Basically means going all-out and burning all your resources as fast as you can.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's basically the same as the term Alpha-Strike from Battletech (which is when you fire all your mech's weapons at once). I.e., doing the most you can is the smallest amount of time.

[Hyooz]

Well, the idea of nova-ing is expending a whole bunch of resources and blah blah blah to do a ridiculous amount of [effect] (usually damage) at once.

People usually try to avoid making it possible because it tends to have unfortunate implications when the last room of a dungeon or a BBEG shows up. The [Nova-ing Character] just throws away a bunch of [Class Resource] to make the last encounter not happen, rests up, and is good to go the next day.

[shadmere]

Ah, ok. Makes more sense now. :) Thanks!

[lsfreak]

An example of a 'light' nova would be a Twinned Energy Adamixture Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire, followed up by another that's quickened by some method. It uses significant resources (two high-level spell slots) in a very short amount of time (one round).

A more ridiculous example Arcane Spellsurge + Greater Arcane Fusion. Greater Arcane Fusion to let loose a metamagicked 7th-level spell, a Sanctum Spell abused Arcane Fusion, a metamagicked 4th level spell, and a 1st level spells, followed by the same but twinned. You're dropping 9 spells in a single round.

A non-caster example is a paladin, which promotes nova-ing thanks to the daily mechanic of Smite Evil. You don't use it, but save it for the boss, where you make all your first attacks smite attacks, using most of your daily allotment of power on a single target.

[jseah]

It is interesting to note that Novas actually do work. Novas are usually capable of rendering entire encounters or one really powerful enemy completely trivial.
When they don't work... they have a tendency to be weaker than normal high attack power builds.

I usually build novas. =P Either that or encourage my partymates to build novas and play a supporting character that makes them better at it. This often ends up being a strategic character, as novas don't deal well with long term things.

[cdrcjsn]

The biggest problem with the alpha strike/nova play style is that it forces the DM to either retaliate in kind (since he knows the bad guy will only have one round to live), or come up with convoluted ways for the bad guys to always gain the initiative or erase any party advantage (which, if not actually breaking the rules, stretches believability in the campaign world and ruins my personal fun "Really? Every bad guy we've ever met is ready for our specific attacks? Do they all subscribe to the same newsletter or something?").

Eventually, it becomes a situation of whoever goes first in initiative wins.

Some people might like that, but it's just not my cup of tea.

[Evard]

I personally don't like going nova... Unless its actually means I'm making a sun go nova :D

[grarrrg]

I personally don't like going nova... Unless its actually means I'm making a sun go nova :D

Remember When You Blew Up A Sun?

[aivanther]

I prefer to call it "death blossom" but basically its blasting everything you have in as rapid a manner as possible.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about a nova is that, done well, it will leave the character's resources depleted in the middle of a pile of dead bodies. Building a character around this is a bad idea because you'll have to rest after every encounter in which you expect to meaningfully contribute. An exception is Artificers, who can easily burn through hundreds of wand charges, since their cap is their WBL, not what they can do daily.

[faceroll]

The biggest problem with the alpha strike/nova play style is that it forces the DM to either retaliate in kind (since he knows the bad guy will only have one round to live), or come up with convoluted ways for the bad guys to always gain the initiative or erase any party advantage (which, if not actually breaking the rules, stretches believability in the campaign world and ruins my personal fun "Really? Every bad guy we've ever met is ready for our specific attacks? Do they all subscribe to the same newsletter or something?").

Eventually, it becomes a situation of whoever goes first in initiative wins.

Some people might like that, but it's just not my cup of tea.

Just increase the number and difficulty of encounters.

[Snake-Aes]

Just increase the number and difficulty of encounters.

Beware! If you just throttle more power, this will only make the group advance faster, or increase the risks unnecessarily high.

Increasing difficulty should be done, mostly, in manners that won't kill you instantly nor will die at a nova character. Traps, environmental hazards, smart enemies, all these collaborate to make a fight more difficult without allowing the players to LUDICROUSLY GIB them.

[AslanCross]

A more ridiculous example Arcane Spellsurge + Greater Arcane Fusion. Greater Arcane Fusion to let loose a metamagicked 7th-level spell, a Sanctum Spell abused Arcane Fusion, a metamagicked 4th level spell, and a 1st level spells, followed by the same but twinned. You're dropping 9 spells in a single round.

That is ridiculous. I'd like some more information.
(To prevent players from using it, of course. Right, yeah, that's why.)

[Beelzebub1111]

The best way to stop novaing is not to add immunities, or to have them ultra prepared, and definitely not to cheat. It's to have multiple boss encounters in a dungeon. Make one of them seem like the final one, then realize that they have more dungeon to explore. Active Volcanoes and Glaciers make great deterrents to resting for eight hours (feeling lucky on those eight increasingly difficult fortitude saves that you have to make to get enough rest?)

[The Glyphstone]

The best way to stop novaing is not to add immunities, or to have them ultra prepared, and definitely not to cheat. It's to have multiple boss encounters in a dungeon. Make one of them seem like the final one, then realize that they have more dungeon to explore. Active Volcanoes and Glaciers make great deterrents to resting for eight hours (feeling lucky on those eight increasingly difficult fortitude saves that you have to make to get enough rest?)

In b4 Rope Trick?

(Incidentally, this is one of the reasons my homebrew game-in-progress is doing away with all forms of extradimensional storage, it's too easy to bypass problems like this with Rope Tricks, Magnificent Mansions, etc.)

[mobdrazhar]

until they step out of the extradimentional space and into the Lava

[Beelzebub1111]

In b4 Rope Trick?

(Incidentally, this is one of the reasons my homebrew game-in-progress is doing away with all forms of extradimensional storage, it's too easy to bypass problems like this with Rope Tricks, Magnificent Mansions, etc.)

Forgot about that...hmm...How about something much stronger that's chasing them...or better yet, A Ticking Clock. Stop the villain before sharn is under a pool of magma. waiting would just make the whole process harder to stop.

[The Glyphstone]

until they step out of the extradimentional space and into the Lava

Forgot about that...hmm...How about something much stronger that's chasing them...or better yet, A Ticking Clock. Stop the villain before sharn is under a pool of magma. waiting would just make the whole process harder to stop.

See, this is more like it. Simple environmental effects can't stop a party with extradimensional spaces available to them. You need time limits, deadlines, external limitations that they can't affect or bypass.

[jiriku]

Beez is on to a good strategy that I rely on heavily when I DM. An effective way to challenge nova characters is to just stop relying on "boss" or "solo" monsters to drive encounters. You can still include plot-centric NPCs and master villains, but give them powerful associates and guards, such that the NPC is no more powerful (or not much more powerful) than any other monster in his lair. Use group encounters, even for your final climactic fights. Combined with clever tactics and environmental hazards, this means that a nova character will occasionally score a tactical advantage by defeating a key monster or clearing out a group of mooks, but this will merely give an advantage in an encounter, never trivialize it.

[faceroll]

In b4 Rope Trick?

It only works at level 9 or above, or level 5, extend spell, and the dedication of a 3rd level spell slot.

And once the players are level 9, you need ad hoc no-fly/no-teleport zones if you don't want the extremely mobile characters able to retreat to safe places.

[ericgrau]

At level 9 or above, enemies also have lots of detect magic, dispel magic, tracking, etc. Not to mention the debate on whether you can bring in all of your bags. It mainly only works with World-of-Warcraft style DMs where future encounters are mindless zombies that have no connections with eachother and kill for no reason and are in a stasis field until the players enter the room. Otherwise not noticing that several of your buddies or even acquaintances died and investigating the cause within a 9 hour timespan is highly unlikely.

But ya, that's the right idea for novas. They are commonly the result of there only being one encounter that matters and class features that let you blow all your strongest things in that same short amount of time. Limit the number of abilities per encounter or increase the number of encounters and they can't happen.

[Reynard]

"Really? Every bad guy we've ever met is ready for our specific attacks? Do they all subscribe to the same newsletter or something?").

Well, if you win every encounter in a single round by going mad with the Twinned-Energy-Adamixture-Maximized-Empowered-Orb-of-Fires, then yes, it is reasonable for the BBEG to give himself and his mooks immunity to that sort of attack.

[jseah]

See, this is more like it. Simple environmental effects can't stop a party with extradimensional spaces available to them. You need time limits, deadlines, external limitations that they can't affect or bypass.

Of course, this is why I like to play a strategic character who helps the nova apply it properly.
I remember starting a thread claiming that BC was useless (and was rapidly forced to retract/amend my statement) in which I presented a playstyle that utilized strategic play to allow novas to work.

There are enough strategic spells (IMO) to allow your escort to get your nova into position, lined up for an attack. A simple tactic is scry-and-die. More complex variations include scouting on the ethereal plane/planeshift or being undetectable.
The idea is to completely bypass encounters you don't need to fight and nova only the critical ones you have to fight.

[faceroll]

The idea is to completely bypass encounters you don't need to fight and nova only the critical ones you have to fight.

And how does this work outside of theoretical discussion?

[Psyx]

The biggest problem with the alpha strike/nova play style is that it forces the DM to either retaliate in kind (since he knows the bad guy will only have one round to live), or come up with convoluted ways for the bad guys to always gain the initiative or erase any party advantage (which, if not actually breaking the rules, stretches believability in the campaign world and ruins my personal fun.

The best way to deal with it is have on-going encounters, where 'reinforcements' turn up halfway, or by distraction/deception that causes players to blaze away and waste resources. For example: an illusion of the BBEG, or simulacrum, or a wall of force in front of them. Player spends all their resources, only to find that the target was reduced to smoking boots... but not the 'real' target.

Don't do it all the while, but make players cautious about the tactic.

[faceroll]

Really? Every bad guy we've ever met is ready for our specific attacks? Do they all subscribe to the same newsletter or something?"

Optimizers justify their optimization choices as "wizards are really smart, so it makes sense that they make the most optimal decisions." There is no reason for the BBEG to make suboptimal decisions, seeing as how he somehow survived all those orbizards and enervaters long enough to become BBEG. The PCs don't have a monopoly on internet builds. The best defenses will be employed against the best offensives.

[Psyx]

AKA: The NPC has an Int of 30. They thought of that, even though I didn't.

[jseah]

And how does this work outside of theoretical discussion?

The main assumption of course is that you are playing a world instead of a fixed plot. (or even a scripted branching scenario)
Trump cards in the form of macguffins will easily block a party designed around that principle for example.

But given the ability to affect the plot, the players have more than enough resources to pull this off at say... level 9?
COP, Divination, Teleport, Scrying. All the big ones are there already. Smaller scouting means like clairvoyance can also be used. And if you have a caster character devoted to gathering info and planning, there's not much (of the same level) that can get by.
- It does rely on planning and prior scouting. It's like that 4E thread in BG about a ranged-only party. You play to get a crushingly high strategic advantage as much as possible.
If your DM runs on the thinking that you WILL get out-maneuvered at least once, no matter your preparation, then you've already lost. To this sort of party, it's like saying that you must lose the strategic battle at least once, when losing the battle there means they fail the mission.
EDIT: It's also like saying you must lose a combat at least one time. Sure, you can lose a combat, but that's why there's combat rules to allow the players to have a shot at it. Arbitrarily deciding that the players didn't think of something and thus are forced into a bad situation is exactly the same.

If the group prefers large dramatic encounters, this is not for you. It's a different playstyle that I've encountered only twice and both times with the same players.