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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Hello Folks!

    As you all know, there are many Prestige Classes out there for spell casters, that are rich of flavor and bad of crunch (Blood Magus, Mind Bender, ...). Many Designer of PrC make their PrC Full Caster Level Progression, so that Players easily take them. Others, well... undertake brave attempts to balance the Abilities of the PrC by loss of Caster Level. Unfortunately, Players tend to avoid those PrC, and most often the abilities are not worth the Caster Levels.

    Of course it is difficult to say generally, but would you consider it problematic to make Prestige Classes that lack Full Caster Progression (Bloodmagus, etc.) into Full Caster Progression? There are many powerful PrC that already have it AND are more powerful than many others..

    What if dipping is ruled out, so you would have to take all PrC Levels? For Necromancers, the Pale Master would be a viable choice therefore, for example.

    Thank you for your kind replies!
    Last edited by Chrizzt; 2010-08-01 at 03:33 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Case-by-case. Swiftblade would be utterly busted with full casting. Mindbender...well, it wouldn't matter all that much. Mostly, ones with powerful late abilities could possibly lose 1 CL (or something else; Archmage, Alienist and company have much better balancing mechanic in losing e.g. spell slots, access to certain summons [for a summoner] or such instead of losing entire spell levels), while others could be full with some other tweaks.

    Note that prerequisites are quite the costs too and Blood Magus is held back by requiring so much to enter, for example (including the notorious Toughness).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-08-01 at 03:36 PM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Jul 2008

    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Case-by-case. Swiftblade would be utterly busted with full casting. Mindbender...well, it wouldn't matter all that much. Mostly, ones with powerful late abilities could possibly lose 1 CL (or something else; Archmage, Alienist and company have much better balancing mechanic in losing e.g. spell slots, access to certain summons [for a summoner] or such instead of losing entire spell levels), while others could be full with some other tweaks.
    What would incantrix be? 8/10?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    What would incantrix be? 8/10?
    Incantatrix has the problem that the most important ability comes at level 3 so even at 6/10 it would be take-worthy while 5/10 would probably lead to it occasionally being dipped for Metamagic Effect and otherwise reviled. It needs a damn redesign instead of mere CL loss.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Incantatrix has the problem that the most important ability comes at level 3 so even at 6/10 it would be take-worthy while 5/10 would probably lead to it occasionally being dipped for Metamagic Effect and otherwise reviled. It needs a damn redesign instead of mere CL loss.
    Are you talking about the MoF or the PGtF one? I use the former.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Are you talking about the MoF or the PGtF one? I use the former.
    MoF is fine at ~8/10 - 9/10. It gets Improved Metamagic a bit early which is totally busted but not so much anything else outside the two uses of Instant Metamagic; I don't recall MoF version having the level cap written. Losing 2 CLs for Improved Metamagic and Instant Metamagic is alright. So 8/10. 9/10 would be strong. PGtF is not fine ever.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2005

    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    I think that it's easier to balance things out a bit by reigning in the most overpowered options, rather than trying to raise lots of other stuff up to that level. Wouldn't it make more sense to reduce the casting progression of full casting PrCs that aren't balanced by their entry requirements (i.e. most of them) to the point that they're roughly balanced with Wizard 20 and Cleric 20?
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] As DM: Making Prestige Classes Full Caster Prog

    Thank you all for your advice!

    Does anyone know the Master Astrologer from Dragon +340? It is currently my favorite PrC, as it is so diverse, but the caster level loss is a real pain.

    The entry feat (Skill Focus Profession) is a waste, as are 8 Skill points into the profession skill, on the other hand it gets up to three bonus feats anyway.

    The cap stone ability looks powerful, and certainly it is, on the other hand it is balanced by the fact that you need a standard action to activate it. This limits its use in combat greatly.

    Would you consider it overpowered when having full caster level progession? How to counter that? Perhaps another crunch-crappy yet fluff-flavorful feat as entry requirement? (to limit the impact of the bonus feats?)

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