[3.5] Polymorph question

[Frosty]

If a human casts Polymorph on himself and changes into an ooze, does he gain the Blindsight, immunity to Gaze attacks/poison/sleep effects/paralysis/stunning? If not, how would he see? An ooze has no eyes and has the Blind quality.

Oozes are also normally immune to critical hits or flanking, so they can't generally be coup-de-grace'ed. That makes sense because an ooze has no head to cut off. Would this human polymorphed into an ooze also be immune to CDGs? I'm not sure if "Not subject to critical hits" counts as an Extraordinary Special Quality (which Polymorph does not grant).

On the other hand, if a Phasm (an aberration that is immune to critical hits in its natural form) polymorphs into a human, does the Phasm suddenly become vulnerable to critical hits and CDGs?

Basically, just how much of the vulnerabilities of the new form does one gain?

[Emperor Ing]

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Unfortunately, while I could be wrong, I think that's a "no."

But if you talk to your GM, i'm certain (s)he'd allow it. One of the most important rules of DnD is that the GM has the final say. If (s)he says you're a hamster you're a hamster.

[FallenWarriorIV]

I don't think Ooze is one on the types that can be changed into with that spell. Lemme double check that. Nevermind.

[grarrrg]

AHHH! It's a polymorph question! Everybody OUT OF THE THREAD!!

[Frosty]

Between the erratas and the confusions, I don't know how to handle this right now. Mostly it's because I'm confused as to what counts as Special Qualities or not. I am planning to have a bunch of Phasms infiltrate a local thieves' guild by polymorphing themselves into humanoids, but I need to know whether the PCs will be able to Hold Monster them and CDG them.

[Jack_Simth]

If a human casts Polymorph on himself and changes into an ooze, does he gain the Blindsight, immunity to Gaze attacks/poison/sleep effects/paralysis/stunning? If not, how would he see? An ooze has no eyes and has the Blind quality.

Oozes are also normally immune to critical hits or flanking, so they can't generally be coup-de-grace'ed. That makes sense because an ooze has no head to cut off. Would this human polymorphed into an ooze also be immune to CDGs? I'm not sure if "Not subject to critical hits" counts as an Extraordinary Special Quality (which Polymorph does not grant).

On the other hand, if a Phasm (an aberration that is immune to critical hits in its natural form) polymorphs into a human, does the Phasm suddenly become vulnerable to critical hits and CDGs?

Basically, just how much of the vulnerabilities of the new form does one gain?

Well, let's go to the source:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

(Emphasis added)
Okay... so of the things relevant to your post, you get the type, subtype, and Ex attacks.

So let's assume a Gelatinous Cube for a shape:
Type is Ooze, which comes with:

* Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
* Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + ½ ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact.
* Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.

So he's Mindless... but keeps his Int score... Blind, gets Blindsight, and so on (see above). Because that's in the ooze type.

He'd also get Acid, Engulf, and Paralysis (because they're Ex attacks), but would not get Transparent, or Immunity to Electricity (because they're special qualities).

[Snake-Aes]

The simplest answer is "no". The spell itself already says Ex/Su/SLA stuff from the new forms are not attained. So a phasm would remain immune to crits as a human, and the elf wizard will still squirm like a rat when squashed.

[Frosty]

I'm getting conflicting answers here!

How can I distinguish Extraordinary Special Qualities from innate racial traits? Does Polymorph/Alter self acutally give you all racial traits?

Ok, so in Alter Self, the spell Polymorph is based on, it says that you lose all (ex) Attacks and Qualities that are based on your normal form and not gained from your class levels.

The Phasm has these following (Ex) abilities:
Amorphous: A phasm in its natural from has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning effects. It is not subject to critical hits and cannot be flanked.
Resilient: A phasm has a +4 racial bonus on Fort and Ref saves (included in the stats block).
Tremorsense (Ex): Range 60 ft.

Listed, it also has Scent and Telepathy 100ft has special qualities, but doesn't specify whether those qualities are (ex). I would assume so?

It also has a (Su) ability called Alternate Form which functions like a CL 15 Polymorph on self only.

So, when it uses it Alternate Form ability on itself to turn into a human, what does it gain and what does it lose? Does it also get to choose a bonus feat right there and then as well for being human?

[Galdor]

The Master Transmogrifist prestige class eventually allows you to gain extraordinary special qualities of the new form with polymorph, but I can't think of any other way to do that.

[Frosty]

The Master Transmogrifist prestige class eventually allows you to gain extraordinary special qualities of the new form with polymorph, but I can't think of any other way to do that.

I'm just looking for how the spell would work so I can adjudicate my game correctly. Not looking for ways to actually get the special qualities.

[jiriku]

In general, polymorph is very unfavorable when it comes to sensory capabilities that are described as extraordinary. You lose those inherent to your original form, but don't gain those inherent to the new form. This leads to such odd situations as a creature with darkvision polymorphing into a different creature with darkvision and losing its darkvision.

You would lose all the racial benefits of being a phasm while polymorphed. You would gain some the racial benefits of your new form. In the case of the phasm impersonating a human, that means you become vulnerable to crits and lose your blindsight, sense, and tremorsense, but you gain the ability to see with normal vision.

[Frosty]

And the feat?

And if the Phasm impersonates an elf, then gets immunity to sleep and bonus vs enchantments?

[Zaydos]

If you change into an ooze you get blindsight because it is a trait of the ooze type and you specifically become that type and anything that is that type has those abilities. You'd also become immune to charm person since you are no longer humanoid. If a DM is actually a stickler for the rules humans lose their bonus feat when they polymorph and their bonus skills because those are racial traits, although I've never seen that actually enforced. You would not gain immunity to electricity if you changed into an ooze that was immune to electricity.

As for the Phasm question

Amorphous (Ex)

A phasm in its natural form has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning effects. It is not subject to critical hits and, having no clear front or back, cannot be flanked.

Emphasis of course mine.

I hope this helps.

They would not get the elf's immunities, though, because those are racial traits and not traits of the Humanoid type.

[Frosty]

Ok...I think I'm starting to get it...one has to carefully read exact wordings in both Alter Self and Polymorph.

Polymorph does indeed change one's type and subtype (unless errata has changed that), so gaining all the qualities of the new type (and losing the qualities of the old type makes sense. In the case of a humanoid PC casting Polymorph, losing Humanoid type traits is generally moot since most humanoid PCs don't have any racial HD and hence use their class features for their basic traits such as proficiencies, eating, sleeping, breathing, etc. They'd gain whatever goodies the new types grants.

In the case of turning into an ooze, being Blind is a Type trait, and Blindsight specifically comes with Blind as a Type trait for oozes. While normally Blindsight is an (Ex) Extraordinary ability and would not normally be gotten with Polymorph, this is an exception due to oozes having Blindsight just by how their body makeup exist.

The humanoid polymorphing into an ooze would also not need to sleep, bit still need to eat and breathe (via osmosis?).

Back to Alter Self, the spell description also says you get the physical qualities of the new form, such as limbs, NA bonus, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and various other bonuses. But you don't get any of the non-physical special qualities. This leads me to believe that one does get all of the physically-based racial features (which is distinct from Type features) of the polymorphed form, but I'm still not certain exactly which ones count as purely physical and which ones are culturally-based.