Antimagic world; how does the balance change?

[IdleMuse]

My friend suggested to me that we try out a campaign setting in which the supernatural and magical just doesn't exist. We decided, that rather than doing any homebrew, we just use the basic D&D 3.5 rules with a permanent Antimagic Field covering everywhere. Modified by DM fiat to be inherent, and thus totally incapable of being bypassed in any way, since it's really just representing the lack of any magical power source.

With this set in place, we then decided that nothing(*) is actually banned. You could play a Wizard if you wanted to, but you'd be worse off than an Expert.

So my question is this; how would this affect class balance? Obviously vancian caster are out of the question, but then so are other frequent powerhouses like Binder. Factotum would lose some power, but then again it's action efficiency option is (Ex). What other classes have a lot of Extraordinary abilities, and how would the other base classes compare to them, especially the obvious ones like Rogue, Fighter and Barbarian?

Would this world be unfun, or does it merit discussion?

(*The only thing that is banned is Tome of Battle, since it would kind of dominate otherwise.)

[Snake-Aes]

That puts ToB on the top of the heap by leaps and bounds. A few disciplines will lose out (Desert Wind, Shadow Hand both are partially Su). Creatures with damage reduction will be much nastier, jump checks gain a purpose(O.O)...


Oh, and don't bother saying "oh it's a permanent antimagic field". Just say "magic's gone. SLAs are gone. Su are also gone."

[WarKitty]

What level are we talking? Low-levels could run ok, possibly even without huge effects. Higher-levels, half the monsters will be gone anyways.

Also, items like acid and alchemist's fire become much more valuable. A thrower build might even be viable.

[ex cathedra]

Crusaders and Warblades would be sick. Since they're out, Barbarians would dominate.

[Kroy]

That puts ToB on the top of the heap by leaps and bounds. A few disciplines will lose out (Desert Wind, Shadow Hand both are partially Su). Creatures with damage reduction will be much nastier, jump checks gain a purpose(O.O)...


Oh, and don't bother saying "oh it's a permanent antimagic field". Just say "magic's gone. SLAs are gone. Su are also gone."

Comprehension fail. He says

My friend suggested...merit discussion?

(*The only thing that is banned is Tome of Battle, since it would kind of dominate otherwise.)

in the OP.

[tyckspoon]

Giants run everything. *Everything.* They're intelligent, they're social, they don't need magic to be powerful or just to exist, and without magic the humanoid races have no practical way of competing with them.

[Snake-Aes]

Yeah. I'll pretend to never have noticed that.


Also, uberchargers. Pain.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What about magical beasts, or other things that function in dead magic zones but had to be created using magic?

[FMArthur]

It will be more boring than it sounds, because you're losing tons and tons of melee options as well. Even mounts are kind of a pain to use without the supernatural abilities that summon and control them. Builds that rely on enhanced weapons are out, getting Sneak Attack is much harder, getting bonuses to anything (Attack, AC, Attributes, Initiative) is also going to be much, much harder without any sort of magic. So everything is going to be mostly stripped down, plain stuff. Melee charging builds still work. So does tripping to a certain degree. But mostly it's just Tome of Battle that can still do things.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

getting Sneak Attack is much harder.

Denying sneak attack is going to be harder as well! Undead are right out, but if there really is no such thing as magic, so are constructs. And to be honest, in a nonmagical world, oozes and treants and the like are walking contradictions, so *poof* go almost all of your problems. Just find a flanking buddy, or a good hiding spot.

[Kylarra]

Seems like a boring [D&D] world to me. If you want a nonmagical world, it's best modeled in a different system.

[peterpaulrubens]

So.. you'd be playing an escapist magical fantasy game and.. there's no magic?

Fun.

[Andion Isurand]

True breeding... Half Green Dragon War Trolls (who share color and alignment) would stand a good chance of domination in "Antimagic World".

[EvilJoe15]

Since nothing but ToB is banned, Wizard and Cleric will still dominate.

Invoke Magic, Cheater Initiate of Mystara.

[Mystic Muse]

Sounds like a boring game of D&D.

[tyckspoon]

Since nothing but ToB is banned, Wizard and Cleric will still dominate.

Invoke Magic, Cheater Initiate of Mystara.

I would love to see the Wizard who makes it to level 9 spells in a world where he can't cast anything and nobody knows any spells to teach him.


And this is an excellent example of why precision in language is important. If you mean no magic, just say no magic. Referencing Anti Magic Field gets you people looking to exploit the rather huge holes in what AMF actually does and does not prevent.

[Coidzor]

Invoke Magic, Cheater Initiate of Mystara.

Yeah, pretty much that one.

Sounds like you just want to play Iron Heroes.

[IdleMuse]

So.. you'd be playing an escapist magical fantasy game and.. there's no magic?

Fun.

Part of the fun is going to be finding out how everything works, and how we can make it fun for people. Our local group is _heavily_ into 'serious' rp-focused games. The D&D subset a little less so, but we're hoping to get a more mixed group than normal. So, from a theoretical pov where we actually run this game, we'd likely get several people newish to the system, and several with a minor level of optimisation-fu. None to the top end of uber-charger quality (not that we'd allow that), though people are right that charging becomes an important strategy.

Given the lack of variety in monsters, it would probably end up being more urban in nature, probably with wilderness jaunts. Lots of class-levelled foes

Giants run everything. *Everything.* They're intelligent, they're social, they don't need magic to be powerful or just to exist, and without magic the humanoid races have no practical way of competing with them.

This is a really interesting note, and exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for on this thread. I'm going to ponder this one...

ToB is not just out for power reasons, but also flavour ones. It's probably fairer to say we'd ban just the ToB base classes, still allowing useful things like Superior Unarmed Strike, and if people really want to, the Martial Training feats.

Regards Dragons and similar races: While a lot of their abilities wouldn't function, they can still exist RAW, but would probably be replaced with other stuff. Like dinosaurs.

You're all probably right that I should've said flat out No Magic rather than using AMF a proxy, that was mostly just because that was the way we came to the idea. It's also pretty short compared to a full list of everything that doesn't work (Sp, Su, Items, Potions, etc etc etc). I hope it's needless to say that I'm looking at this from a PO rather than TO perspective, and thus trying shenanigans would be a waste of time.

[Draz74]

Since nothing but ToB is banned, Wizard and Cleric will still dominate.

Invoke Magic, Cheater Initiate of Mystara.

Modified by DM fiat to be inherent, and thus totally incapable of being bypassed in any way, since it's really just representing the lack of any magical power source.

Reading Comprehension Fail #2.

Hmmm, there's a lot of tricks that could still be pulled off, but none of them sound very fun at all. The Hulking Hurler now rules the universe, the Ubercharger is his main competition. DMs find themselves confronted with Barbarians, Fighters, Swashbucklers (at least they get Acrobatic Charge!), Factotums, and Rogues, all using Ubercharging tactics.

Factotums, Rogues, and Swift Hunters (probably the Scout-heavy version) would be playable without using either of the above tricks, so they become the standard "alternative" options.

[SparkMandriller]

I hope you don't mind spending like a million years resting to heal after every fight.

[EvilJoe15]

I thought of something else. Three words: Magic Psionic Transparency.
This would be very important to consider, as unless stated, it's not in effect.

[Draz74]

Regards Dragons and similar races: While a lot of their abilities wouldn't function, they can still exist RAW, but would probably be replaced with other stuff. Like dinosaurs.

I think Dragons would still be pretty much utterly dominant, even without their spellcasting and breath weapons. They've still got longevity, flight and other alternate movement speeds, lots of Hit Dice, d12 hit dice, a LOT more skill points than Giants, and a bunch of natural attacks on their side. And if they can take Martial Study feats, yikes. (Not to mention ... does the Xorvintaal template that replaces their spellcasting with other abilities, function in a no-magic world?)

I thought of something else. Three words: Magic Psionic Transparency.
This would be very important to consider, as unless stated, it's not in effect.

Um, no, unless stated otherwise, it is in effect.

[The Glyphstone]

:ToB is not just out for power reasons, but also flavour ones. It's probably fairer to say we'd ban just the ToB base classes, still allowing useful things like Superior Unarmed Strike, and if people really want to, the Martial Training feats.

Regards Dragons and similar races: While a lot of their abilities wouldn't function, they can still exist RAW, but would probably be replaced with other stuff. Like dinosaurs.

Not to derail this into a ToB discussion, but this is odd enough that I have to ask, why? Banning ToB for flavor reasons is one I've seen, and can accept, but banning the actual base classes (which are, for the most part, nothing but chassis for getting multiple maneuvers and being able to reuse them in a fight) but leaving the martial abilities that make up 80-90% of their 'class features' seems sort of counter-intuitive. The Swordsage/Crusader/Warblade by themselves don't really have any inherent flavor aside from being "martial adept monk/martial adept paladin/martial adept fighter".

(Assuming you meant Martial Study, the feat that grants a maneuver 1/encounter, when you said Martial Training).

[EvilJoe15]

Um, no, unless stated otherwise, it is in effect.

You're right I'm wrong, again. But really I always thought it was optional.

[The Glyphstone]

You're right I'm wrong, again. But really I always thought it was optional.

It's a common mistake, probably the 2nd most common reason DMs think Psionis are unbalanced (after the little PP=ML bit). But that's digressing.

[fryplink]

would the factotum's opportunistic piety ability work? or any lay on hands? healing might be tricky considering that resting doesn't heal much and most healing in DnD is magical, and poison and disease becomes a legitimate threat to the PCs.

So a lot goes into how potions work, seeing as they are tied to spell casting classes. If you have no potions, no healing spells, no-rest house rules adventures are only going to last as long as HP stays at a safe level.

That being said, it could be fun as long as you can mix things up some, being a little rp-centric can help, but you can only kill so many corrupt court noble bodyguards before people begin to look for something more interesting

[IdleMuse]

Um, no, unless stated otherwise, it is in effect.

Yes, I was going to mention this in the OP, but didn't trying to avoid tl;dr. Unlike other campaigns I have run, Psionic-Magic transparency is in force here, as the default, hence no psionic anything.

(Assuming you meant Martial Study, the feat that grants a maneuver 1/encounter, when you said Martial Training).

Yes, I just didn't want to go look up the actual name. The decision is one I inherited from my old DM, who said he was fine with individuals having a couple of specifically trained complex maneuvers, but to have more than one (or at a push, two), would just add too much of the Wuxia flavour he didn't want. Banning the base (and prestige) classes is pretty much the same flavour decision, it's just letting people still have access to a specific mechanic if they really wanted it. Sort of like saying that sure, this stuff exists, but only on the other side of the world. You can have learnt a little bit second-hand from people who've been there, but it's not the kind of flavour we want running rampant.

EDIT: Regards Hulking Hurler in specific; I think my friend has a homebrew fix he likes: I haven't seen it, but I have seen the builds that abuse it, and to my mind it's in the same category as Pun-Pun; just a badly thought-out ability that leads to problems, and is thus banned. Same as Dark Chaos shuffle and other blatantly stupid stuff.

[Coidzor]

So, from a theoretical pov where we actually run this game, we'd likely get several people newish to the system, and several with a minor level of optimisation-fu. None to the top end of uber-charger quality (not that we'd allow that), though people are right that charging becomes an important strategy.

Given the lack of variety in monsters, it would probably end up being more urban in nature, probably with wilderness jaunts. Lots of class-levelled foes

Tripping would be a very good option as opposed to one that's easily mitigated by DMs, and it'd be sort of a rock paper scizzors thing between trippers, uberchargers, and whatever can get a decent ranged build in this world.

This is a really interesting note, and exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for on this thread. I'm going to ponder this one...

Look at the thread "Why are Giants Interesting" from the past few days and you'll have some ideas related to them that might interest you for this line of thinking.

Regards Dragons and similar races: While a lot of their abilities wouldn't function, they can still exist RAW, but would probably be replaced with other stuff. Like dinosaurs.

Monsters with DR are going to be either non-existent, have it altered to be in line with materials (for example, eberron added in some more materials to bypass DR to add to the pot, IIRC) rather than magical ability or just be much more challenging than they would otherwise be, like, their CR would likely have to increase until they were within the threat range for a party that could be expected to do enough damage to have a shot at surviving 'em. The Planes wouldn't exist for the purposes of the players even more so than if they were on Athas and the cosmology is pretty much negligible.

All rangers will want something like distracting attack to trade out the Animal Companion for and either the CW or CC ACF instead of their non-existent spellcasting.

Many people who want to melee will dip into Barbarian for pounce.

Heal would have to be invested in so that the time it takes to heal up after a fight is cut down. I think there's maybe one or two non-magic feats that'd improve that, but you'd need at least two characters to switch off who's providing care so that you don't end up with someone at half hp while the rest of the party is at full.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, I just didn't want to go look up the actual name. The decision is one I inherited from my old DM, who said he was fine with individuals having a couple of specifically trained complex maneuvers, but to have more than one (or at a push, two), would just add too much of the Wuxia flavour he didn't want. Banning the base (and prestige) classes is pretty much the same flavour decision, it's just letting people still have access to a specific mechanic if they really wanted it. Sort of like saying that sure, this stuff exists, but only on the other side of the world. You can have learnt a little bit second-hand from people who've been there, but it's not the kind of flavour we want running rampant.

Logical enough - it's not specifically the flavor you dislike, but having enough of it to overpower the flavor of the existing setting. Makes sense explained that way.

[Jack_Simth]

Skill-monkeys become exceptionally useful. As most of the counters to stealth are magical in nature. Most things that have Spot and Listen as class skills are either skillmonkeys themselves, or are casters. Critters have them, yes... but for their CR? Not so much. An amount of distance, and a stealth-focused Ranger can slay basically anything (you need: 1: High Dex. 2: Skill Focus(Hide). 3: Skill Focus (Move Silently). 4: Stealthy. 5: Darkstalker. 6: Archery Focus. 7: A bit of distance to snipe with).

Now, if you really want to talk about critters that dominate? Take a look at the Unbodied. They're not undead, so they don't have the undead's pesky clause about vanishing in an AMF - they stick around. No magic means nothing can harm them. Sure, most of their abilities are gone... but they do keep that incorporeal touch attack. So if an Unbodied wants you dead, you have to run away and/or hide (unless you've got Regeneration or some such).

Oh yes, and that Crystal Troll is really, really hard to get rid of (but you can do it, as it still has to eat, drink, and breathe). Mr. T is a civilization-ending event.