DM or player rolling in PBP?

[DonEsteban]

Assume a situation like this:
A player is exploring and suddenly encounters a big scaly creature with five heads. Now, a knowledge (arcana) roll would be required to identify this creature as a hydra and probably knowing that cutting off its heads is not a good idea. In tabletop gaming the DM would ask the player to make this roll (or not even ask, but expect him to roll and ask me if he wants to know what the creature is). No problem. But in play-by-post games this becomes a major hassle, cause the DM has to ask him to roll, the player rolls next time he logs in and the DM tells him the result when he comes back. This could easily take a day or two with nothing happening in between.

So the natural thing would be for the DM to roll on his behalf and tell him the result right away. Now we've saved a day, but on the downside rolling dice is half the fun of the game (at least for me) so my question is:

As a DM do you do such kinds of die rolls (all kinds of saves, skill checks and the like fall into this category) instead of your players?

As a player do you think this spoils the fun or is it worth speeding up the game?

Is there some middle ground?

[Ichneumon]

It really depends. I am now DM'ing a game in which all the players are quite active so I can expect them to respond within a few hours and it might take less than 1 day to finish that Knowledge check in your example. So, in such a game, I'd let them do it, as it is, as you said, really part of the fun of the game.

However, there indeed are games in which this just doesn't work. In such a case I try to make as many rolls for them as possible: When a monster attacks that allows them a save, I make the save. I am the one rolling for initiative etc. They are still the ones to make damage and attack rolls and such.

I know it is sometimes a bother to wait, but that's a problem of doing pbp I guess.

[Mnemnosyne]

One option I've seen used a few times and personally like is the habit of having every player end their post with a 'generic roll.' Every time the player posts, throw in an additional d20 roll at the bottom, to be used for whatever situations may come up that require a player roll.

Sometimes (perhaps often) this roll won't be used for anything, but when a situation comes up that the DM needs the player's roll for something, they don't have to inform the player, then wait for the player to roll - they have one ready to use. Was there a knowledge check the player might want to make? There's the roll. Was there something the player might spot, or listen? You've got their spot/listen check, etc. Did a combat come up by surprise? You've got an initiative check pre-rolled, and so on.

[Aroka]

You need to eliminate all rolls you can in PBP, and I don't quite get how anybody's fun can possibly be affected by who triggers the RNG script. The answer is obvious.

[DonEsteban]

Yes. Obvious. You obviously don't know that the player's karma has a direct influence on the outcome of the die roll. Whether it's a real or a virtual one. Would you also want your DM to make all your attack rolls? Would you want him to do it at the table if it somehow sped up the game?

Mnemnosyne: That's an interesting option, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. I mean, is it really fun to roll and not know what it's for? That's like coming to the gaming table with a pre-generated list of random numbers. It's just not... I don't know... sexy?

[Boci]

Yes. Obvious. You obviously don't know that the player's karma has a direct influence on the outcome of the die roll. Whether it's a real or a virtual one. Would you also want your DM to make all your attack rolls? Would you want him to do it at the table if it somehow sped up the game?

Mnemnosyne: That's an interesting option, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. I mean, is it really fun to roll and not know what it's for? That's like coming to the gaming table with a pre-generated list of random numbers. It's just not... I don't know... sexy?

Since the DM knows the hydra is comming up he copuld always ask the players to roll just beofre it showed up. Possible with a "You here a deep growl, roll knowledge (arcana) to try and identify it"

[Math_Mage]

There are many kinds of rolls I'm comfortable making for my PbP players: initiative, if it's obvious combat is starting; reactive Spot/Listen/Sense Motive/foo checks; saves vs. opponent's spells/abilities; and so on. In general, when it's the result of something I do to them, I'm willing to roll it; if it's their own initiative that generates it, I'm not. However, I usually give the players a chance to roll it first. If they don't post within the time limit, only then do I roll for them. This keeps the game moving, without the players feeling they've been unduly preempted.

[valadil]

I don't see why the player needs to wait for confirmation to roll.

PC: "I'd like to make a nature check on that hydra."
DM: "Okay, roll it."
PC: "2"
DM: "You know that hydras are a harmless land mammal sought after for their tasty meat. Hydra is best served pan fried with onions, peppers, mushrooms, and a little bit of garlic."

This is functionally equivalent to

PC: "I'd like to make a nature check on that hydra. I got a 2."
DM: "You know that hydras ..."

Cuts out two transactions, but has the same result. Were I running a game, this is the option I'd go for. I'd consider rolling as DM, only if I didn't trust the PCs.

[Boci]

I don't see why the player needs to wait for confirmation to roll.

PC: "I'd like to make a nature check on that hydra."
DM: "Okay, roll it."
PC: "2"
DM: "You know that hydras are a harmless land mammal sought after for their tasty meat. Hydra is best served pan fried with onions, peppers, mushrooms, and a little bit of garlic."

This is functionally equivalent to

PC: "I'd like to make a nature check on that hydra. I got a 2."
DM: "You know that hydras ..."

Cuts out two transactions, but has the same result. Were I running a game, this is the option I'd go for. I'd consider rolling as DM, only if I didn't trust the PCs.

DM: You see a wierd 5 headed creature with serpentine necks. Arcane check for details.
Players: Roll
DM: You know X.

Thats the problem, players rolling their own dice slowing the game down.
Players:

[Math_Mage]

I don't see why the player needs to wait for confirmation to roll.
[...]
Cuts out two transactions, but has the same result. Were I running a game, this is the option I'd go for. I'd consider rolling as DM, only if I didn't trust the PCs.

As Boci points out, the DM is often the one initiating the conversation--so can speed the game up by making some player rolls for them, at the cost of back-and-forth. I doubt anyone has a problem with players rolling dice without the DM's confirmation of every roll.

[valadil]

As Boci points out, the DM is often the one initiating the conversation--so can speed the game up by making some player rolls for them, at the cost of back-and-forth. I doubt anyone has a problem with players rolling dice without the DM's confirmation of every roll.

Ah, makes sense. I've never done a PbP game and lacked context. I think I'd prefer to have the roll for me in this case. Yes, rolling dice is fun but I'd rather get on with the game than wait 12 hours.

[Mnemnosyne]

Mnemnosyne: That's an interesting option, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. I mean, is it really fun to roll and not know what it's for? That's like coming to the gaming table with a pre-generated list of random numbers. It's just not... I don't know... sexy?

Personally I don't really find the rolling of the dice to be all that fun, so it doesn't make a great deal of difference to me. I know some people do, and some feel it's very important for them to roll their own rolls, so this is kind of a compromise to allow them to do so, but also allow the game to move forward quickly. I can see how it would take some of the fun out of it for people who do find the dice-rolling fun, but I also think it's a worthwhile thing to give up in order to keep the pace moving along much faster.

[Ichneumon]

For me, thefun of dice rolling is already taken away by removing physical dice amd replacing it with a digital random number generator. I do love rolling physical dice though.

[Aroka]

Yes. Obvious. You obviously don't know that the player's karma has a direct influence on the outcome of the die roll. Whether it's a real or a virtual one. Would you also want your DM to make all your attack rolls? Would you want him to do it at the table if it somehow sped up the game?

If it sped up the game, yes. There is no magic. "Luck" is just what you call a set of random results after the fact.

And comparing tabletop to PBP like that is silly; PBP is already vastly different, and has completely different requirements. The "I do Y" "roll X" "I got Z" exchange is trivial at the table, but can take hours or more in PBP - a medium that's already slow as molasses.

[elpollo]

In my opinion, yes, the DM should roll things like this in a PBP. I do not understand how people find half the fun of a game typing [roll] tags (or whatever). You still usually have to wait for the DM to tell you if it's a success, so this makes the game crawl. This is bad.

Honestly, I think the only way I'd stay interested in a play-by-post is if the only rolling I ever had to do is in character generation (if needed). Sure, I enjoy rolling physical dice, but typing tags is more of a chore (I mean, come on, it's like 15 digits to roll a d20). If someone wants to take it away from me AND it means I get better/faster gaming, how is that bad? All I need to do is point my character and press go (or send).

edit as I forgot to mention it:

Yes! Obvious! You obviously don't know that the player's karma has a direct influence on the outcome of the die roll! Whether it's a real or a virtual one! Would you also want your DM to make all your attack rolls? Would you want him to do it at the table if it somehow sped up the game?

Firstly and perhaps most importantly, I think the exclamation marks make you sound more upbeat.

Secondly, I can't tell if you're joking or not. The first four sentances suggest yes, but the fifth and sixth suggest no. I'm hoping you're just fluent in humour.

[hobbes1020]

I find in my PbP game that my players stay more interested and involved when the game moves at a faster pace. I agree it is fun to make your own rolls but not at the cost of slowing the game down to a crawl. When that happens my players quit even checking the forums and that ends up being much less fun than not getting to make your own knowledge rolls.

In my game I make several skill check rolls for my players automatically, such as spot, listen, detect motive, etc. When an encounter starts I roll initiative for everyone as well. Waiting for 5 players to post init could take a full day or more whereas if init is rolled and posted by me we can hop into the action right away.

As it has already been stated however, it depends a lot on your players.

[arrowhen]

I miss the side comments, snide comments, good-natured trash talk, barely relevant Star Wars and Monty Python quotes and other assorted table chatter far more than I do the clattering of dice.

[Strawberries]

I miss the side comments, snide comments, good-natured trash talk, barely relevant Star Wars and Monty Python quotes and other assorted table chatter far more than I do the clattering of dice.

That's what the OOC thread is for.
Yes, I shamelessly support the use of the OOC thread.