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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Say you are Wildshaped into a Dire Bear, which by default has 2 claws (2d4+x) and 1 bite (2d8+x/2). Then you cast Bite of the Weretiger on yourself, which grants you 2 claws (1d8+x) and a bite (2d6+x/2).

    What attacks will you have, and what damage should they be dealing? Do you just take the better of the two sets, or would yhe spell override your innately superior natural weapons?
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Generally you take the best of whatever is available to you. In this case, ignore the natural weapons; the point of the spell is to add Bite of the WereFoo's ridiculous stat bonuses to the ridiculous stats you already have by being a Dire Bear (which tends to make your base damage values rather meaningless anyway, since you'll be swinging a 40+ Strength.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Hmm...so if I have a Dire Bear animal companion, I can Share Spells my Bite of the Werefoo with it and then also cast Animal Growth on it...

    As a secondary question, how does a druid deal with the problem of Damage Reduction? His wildshaped claws aint made out of silver/adamantine/cold iron etc.
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    There are a couple spells that allow natural weapons to overcome material DRs.

    Otherwise, you just overcome DR the way druids overcome everything. Cast a spell, add aggression! RAWR!
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    I think there are some magic items in MIC which help with that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Question on Grappling while Wildshaped:

    In the PHB, the one of the Grappling options is "Damage your Opponent." The descriptino mentions using grappling to deal Unarmed Strike damage. Should the druid choose to do so, then a) he can't use one of his Natural Attacks in place of his Unarmed Strike correct? and b) does he take a -5 penalty to each successive "Damage opponent" attempt just like with iterative attacks?

    Another option is "Attack your opponent" and this one works with Unarmed Strike, Natural weapon, or light weapon. Normally one doesn'tmake iterative attacks with natural weapons. If your wildshaped form has 2 claws and a bite, do you get to make all 3 regardless of your actual BAB, and if so, then do you take the standard -2 penalty on the secondary natural attack (assuming the Multiattack feat of course)?
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Hmm...so if I have a Dire Bear animal companion, I can Share Spells my Bite of the Werefoo with it and then also cast Animal Growth on it...
    Don't forget girallon's blessing and charge of the triceratops for three extra attacks per round. Plus lion's charge so you can pounce. And mass snake's swiftness, so that if you have to move and make a single attack, you can instead move, make a single attack, and give all of your allies an extra attack too.
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Grappling for monsters is wierd. The rules don't really cover it, not surprisingly. The rules in the PHB are for player grappling, when you are dealing UAS damage. It doesn't make much sense for a bear to hug you and deal UAS damage, does it? Not really. Also, monsters with natural attacks kinda get shafted, since they can't make iterative grapple attacks with their limbs. It takes a bit of creative rules modification to deal with this, and it gets worse for a creature that has UAS damage AND natural attacks, like a Tashalatora based Monk/PsyWar who has the Deepspawn feat or the Illithid Grapple feats, or who just manifests Claws of the Beast.

    There is a REALLY good guide to grappling monsters somewhere here in GitP, but my google-fu is weak. I saw a link to it not long ago, and was gonna bookmark it, but my computer restarted over night and I forgot about it until it was too late.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-08-06 at 01:42 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    As a secondary question, how does a druid deal with the problem of Damage Reduction? His wildshaped claws aint made out of silver/adamantine/cold iron etc.
    The following might work but would be very expensive:
    1. Take the Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
    2. Add Transmuting Weapon property (total cost becomes +3 bonus equivalent or 54,000 gp).
    3. Add Wildling Clasp so that it transfers in wildshape (another 4,000 gp)

    There is also the option of using Mouthpick weapons (LoM pg 46), but that can only be applied to your bite attacks.
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Grappling for monsters is wierd. The rules don't really cover it, not surprisingly. The rules in the PHB are for player grappling, when you are dealing UAS damage. It doesn't make much sense for a bear to hug you and deal UAS damage, does it? Not really. Also, monsters with natural attacks kinda get shafted, since they can't make iterative grapple attacks with their limbs. It takes a bit of creative rules modification to deal with this, and it gets worse for a creature that has UAS damage AND natural attacks, like a Tashalatora based Monk/PsyWar who has the Deepspawn feat or the Illithid Grapple feats, or who just manifests Claws of the Beast.

    There is a REALLY good guide to grappling monsters somewhere here in GitP, but my google-fu is weak. I saw a link to it not long ago, and was gonna bookmark it, but my computer restarted over night and I forgot about it until it was too late.
    Do you know where else grappling rules are mentioned? Does the DMG have any extra rules with regards to that?
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    As a secondary question, how does a druid deal with the problem of Damage Reduction? His wildshaped claws aint made out of silver/adamantine/cold iron etc.
    If you have DR yourself, your natural attacks automatically overcome DR of that type (except, of course, DR/-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    In the PHB, the one of the Grappling options is "Damage your Opponent." The descriptino mentions using grappling to deal Unarmed Strike damage. Should the druid choose to do so, then a) he can't use one of his Natural Attacks in place of his Unarmed Strike correct? and b) does he take a -5 penalty to each successive "Damage opponent" attempt just like with iterative attacks?
    Actually, you can substitute a natural attack or light weapon for your unarmed strike in a grapple.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    If You’re Grappling
    When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

    Activate a Magic Item
    You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

    Attack Your Opponent
    You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

    You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
    Another option is "Attack your opponent" and this one works with Unarmed Strike, Natural weapon, or light weapon. Normally one doesn'tmake iterative attacks with natural weapons. If your wildshaped form has 2 claws and a bite, do you get to make all 3 regardless of your actual BAB, and if so, then do you take the standard -2 penalty on the secondary natural attack (assuming the Multiattack feat of course)?
    Nope. You get the one attack, but you can make it multiple times, like: Claw +15/Claw +10/Claw +5. Grapple rules supersede the regular "natural attacks don't get iteratives" rule because the grapple rules contain an exception for how you use ANY weapon in a grapple, including a natural attack.

    Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks).

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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    An unorthodox way to overcome DR.

    Get more damage :P.

    DR5/- is overcome by getting +5 damage to your attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Fax, is there any way to overcome to innate -4 penalty when attacking in a grapple? with my not-so-hot BAB and the second attack at a -5, it's not likely to hit. But then, my opponent is not going to do much either.

    Should I choose to try to do Unarmed Damage with the opposed grappling option, what would the unarmed damage of a large or huge creature be? 1d4 and 1d6? Guess those size increases don't really matter as much when you're not a monk heh.
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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    There is a 3rd level stance in ToB, something Wolverine something Stance, that lets you use ANY weapon in a grapple without penalty. That includes natural weapons. Unfortunately, as a straight drood, you won't be able to get it until your 12th level feat due to IL restrictions, and it'll cost you 2 feats (one for Martial Study: any Tiger Claw).

    Other than that, Rake attacks never take -4 when grappling, IIRC, so if you have a form that gains a Rake attack, you can use that. If you need to increase your UAS damage, a Monk's Belt is a great start. 5th level monk gives you 1d8 base damage as a medium creature. 1 size increase is 2d6, 2 size increases is 3d6. Thats better than 1d3 > 1d4 > 1d6... Alternatively, Dip Fist of the Forest for 1-3 levels for 1d8 or 1d10 base as a medium creature.

    The DM I'm playing my ECL5 Tash grappler with (who has tentacles thanks to Deepspawn) agrees that monsters (and monsterous PCs) get the shaft while grappling, so he allows me to make grapple attempts (ONLY to do damage, no pinning or other grapple options) with my tentacles. With penalties, his attack bonus with the tentacles in a grapple is like, only -3, but his grapple mod with the tentacles is a more competative +19, even though its opposed roll. A successful grapple check with the tentacles does tentacle damage instead of the UAS damage the rules dictate, which is FAR lower due to Monk UAS progression. You could ask fo the same if you are making a dedicated grappler. Ultimately, it allows him to hit more often with his tentacles, but the damage when he does is much lower. Its a pretty good trade off and helps smooth out the damage/round curve.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-08-06 at 12:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
    A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

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    Default Re: [3.5] How do the 'Bite of the X' spells interact with Wildshape?

    Unfortunately, we are pretty much limited to Core + PHB2 + the Completes + Spell Compendium, so many options are not available. Still, even core only Druids kick butt, and with a 40+ str, even unarmed damage will hurt.
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