Shadowrun - Worth It?

[Man With Dog]

Hi there,

I am currently a DnD player - i played since v2 and currently play v3.5 alot and occasional v4 but a friend from work has recently said he might start a Shadowrun game.
Now i only know the very basics of Shadowrun and thought i'd ask around these parts for any views on Shadowrun.

It wont interfere with my DnD but - is it a good game worth giving a try?

[Coplantor]

I loooooooove the seting. Though I fear some of my players wont ever ever EVER understand the mechanics, some of them have been playing for almost 4 years 3.5 and they still dont quite get d20 system, far less the idea of optimization.

If you have no probleems learninga new system, then you should totally give it a try, specially if your friend is a goo GM.

[Ormagoden]

Yeah, but play 3rd edition. It's more complicated but has more options.
(unless you can't find the books! then you can try 4th :( )

[Man With Dog]

I shold be ok with learning a new system, i am vaguely familiar with it from my past but the DM/GM that wants to run it is alot more familiar with it.

I've already decided if i do play i wouldnt mind a sniper based character - that likely to be done or easy to accomplish?

Any tips or sites for reference would be appreciated too

[MrLich]

I think Shadowrun is one of the best settings I've ever played. The game I played in was definitely my favorite game of all time but it was a combination of great DM and amazing RPers that I played with.

The sniper type could easily be done a few different ways. The sniper from my group was our hacker/decker. With enough newyen and cybernetics you can be amazing at whatever you please. :)

Sadly I don't know of any good sites but I could look though my books and come up with a few ideas if your interested.

[Satyr]

Yes, a sniper shouldn't be a problem at all. Not always useful, but it shouldn't be a problem. Shadowrun characters start already quite competent and many concepts work from the beginning. The only problem might be getting a good sniper rifle.

Yeah, but play 3rd edition. It's more complicated but has more options.
(unless you can't find the books! then you can try 4th :( )

Not necessary. Yes, for everybody who knows the older stuff, the rule changes in 4th edition were no improvements; and the changes in the background were terrible. However, without this comparison, Shadowrun 4e is not a bad game. The rules are not better or worse, just different (and less iconic), and as long as they work, it's fine.

Now, the background changes and the utter lack of cyberpunk atmosphere, that's a serious drawback.

[Oracle_Hunter]

SR is a system for math enthusiasts.

If you enjoyed 3.5 character creation, then you'll love rolling up a Street Sam or Rigger and spending 2-3 hours getting them just right.

The setting can't be beat - it remains unique amongst the RPGs (AFAIK) - and so long as you have the right mindset going into it (everyone's a glass cannon, so strike only when you can win, and strike first) and never cut a deal with a dragon, you'll be fine

Between the systems, I prefer SR3 to SR4; SR4 has cleaner dice mechanics but loses a lot of the dystopian and cyberpunk from previous editions due to fluff alterations.

Basically:
SR1-3 = William Gibson
SR4 = Neal Stephenson

...plus magic, of course

EDIT: You can make pretty much any character in SR, but as long as you don't mix magic & cyberware, you'll be OK. You can mix magic & cyberware (Physical Adepts mostly) but it's a bit trickier.

In general, your character should be a specialist in one area and a generalist in another. For a Sniper, getting familiar with a SMG might not be the worst idea - though a Troll Bow Sniper is always fun

[Earthwalker]

I loved shadowrun as well.

Snipers are possible tho it is a good idea to have another string to your bow. Playing just a sniper you might find lots of situations where the GM doesn't want you to just sit up high and blow all the bad guys away, so meetings will take place inside buildings and so on.

Last time I checked, the dumpshock forums was the place to be to discuss the game, of course it seems plenty of people here still play if you need build advice.

Oh and I think out of the box, you can't get a very good sniper riffle, limits on availability of starting equipment. Can soon get something nice once the game begins tho.

[Britter]

In my opinion, the sourcebooks for 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun are some of the best out there. Evocative, full of good setting material, and preserving a sense of mystery and depth to the setting, they were also very good reads. If you play using the 4th editon rules, do yourself a favor and track down as much of the old source books as possible and use them to flesh out the setting. The sourcebooks are often entirely devoid of mechanics and only provide setting, characters and events, so minimal conversion is necessary. Mid-to-late 3rd edition stuff is no where near as good and often trends towards the ridiculous, and I would recomend avoiding it.

Regarding playing the system, I have been running Shadowrun games for 13 or so years, and I have never had as much fun with any other system. I don't like the transhumanist focus of 4e, and I perfer the grittier cyberpunk aspects of the earlier additions, but you should try the system for your self and see how it suits you.

[Winterwind]

I can only concur with the posters before me. Love ShadowRun, especially setting-wise, am familiar only with the 3rd edition of it though, and what I've heard about the 4th one makes it sound like it's still a decent game, but nothing that would make me interested in switching over from the 3rd one.

[Man With Dog]

I think Shadowrun is one of the best settings I've ever played. The game I played in was definitely my favorite game of all time but it was a combination of great DM and amazing RPers that I played with.

The sniper type could easily be done a few different ways. The sniper from my group was our hacker/decker. With enough newyen and cybernetics you can be amazing at whatever you please. :)

Sadly I don't know of any good sites but I could look though my books and come up with a few ideas if your interested.

Always interested in idea's - i dont have the players handbook equivalent book yet - waiting on DM to see which he wants to run with (and of course i hadnt asked if people thought it worthwhile playing)
But i am always open to idea's - any idea's from anyone

[Zaakar]

If you wanna play a sci-fi game, shoot. I don't really like all the mechanics (though most of it), but it's nothing you can't live with (like pretty much any other good tabletop RPG)

Also, while I've never played the game, just read some books, the game seem to require a quite good GM. There are many elements in that game that you never have to bother with in DnD.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Always interested in idea's - i dont have the players handbook equivalent book yet - waiting on DM to see which he wants to run with (and of course i hadnt asked if people thought it worthwhile playing)
But i am always open to idea's - any idea's from anyone

So... a lot depends on whether you're playing SR4 or not.

Spoiler

Show

In SR4 you can be whatever.

In previous editions, there was The Decker Problem - some "classes" were inherently hyperspecialized and therefore did not play well with others. This was mainly The Decker but also non-drone Riggers. Some GMs (such as me) would just give the PCs a "free" Rigger and/or Decker when the 'run called for it. SR4 fixed this by making everyone a little bit Decker and every Rigger a Drone Rigger.

What, exactly, do you want your 'runner to be capable of doing? Imagine him as a member of a Special Operations ("SpecOps") team - what's his job? You can also use TF2 terminology if that helps.

[Hzurr]

A few thoughts (I played Shadowrun for the first time this summer, and my previous experience was almost exclusively d&d)

- If playing 4th (which I played, and enjoyed), pick up the 20th anniversary book, not the default 4th edition Shadowrun book. The origional release is horribly laid out, and very difficult to navigate. The 20th anniversary re-printing is much easier to use (and it uses the 4E rule set)

- It's very easy to twink your character so that he/she is OMG UNBELIEVABLY AWESOME!!11! at just one thing. Be careful about this, because even though specialization is important, don't be afraid to have some decent secondary skills (even ones that are covered better by other party members) because it's inevitable that you'll end up in a situation that you can't shoot your way out of, and you'll need to drive (or you can't magic your way out of, and you'll need to talk; or talk your way out of, and you'll need to sneak). Secondary roles are key; so don't ignore them.

- In my experience, I've found that a lot more goes into the initial planning of missions (which is interesting, because this is usually what caused things to slow down in d&d, but it's one of the best parts of Shadowrun).

- When you create your character, spend a few more points on cash, and make sure that you buy a few things that "could be useful, but you'll never need." You'll use them, trust me.

[HailDiscordia]

It's totally worth giving it a shot. To agree with everyone else, the world is absolutely one of the best that there is.

I have a 2nd edition game going on currently and the rules are really not that bad. Honestly I hadn't played 2ed in years and it's not as bad as I remember it, and if you have a decent GM they can just improvise and keep things moving. I highly recommend Shadowrun.

And you can get 2nd edition books online for next to nothing!

[Oracle_Hunter]

I recommend SR3 to SR2 - the character creation system in SR3 is much better. In SR2 it is either impossible or incredibly awkward to make certain races Full Magicians due to a quirk in the generation method. Plus, they tighten up the math a bit in each generation, so the later the better.

SR4 is an exception just because of the massive fluff shift - and a corresponding rules shift.

[Man With Dog]

So... a lot depends on whether you're playing SR4 or not.

Spoiler

Show

In SR4 you can be whatever.

In previous editions, there was The Decker Problem - some "classes" were inherently hyperspecialized and therefore did not play well with others. This was mainly The Decker but also non-drone Riggers. Some GMs (such as me) would just give the PCs a "free" Rigger and/or Decker when the 'run called for it. SR4 fixed this by making everyone a little bit Decker and every Rigger a Drone Rigger.

What, exactly, do you want your 'runner to be capable of doing? Imagine him as a member of a Special Operations ("SpecOps") team - what's his job? You can also use TF2 terminology if that helps.

I am interested in a Sniper kind role but it cant JUST be Sniper so he needs a kind of 'backup'
I dont mind too much what his secondary ability / specialisation would be.
Maybe he is a pistol user? An SMG user etc - dont mind

[Oracle_Hunter]

I am interested in a Sniper kind role but it cant JUST be Sniper so he needs a kind of 'backup'
I dont mind too much what his secondary ability / specialisation would be.
Maybe he is a pistol user? An SMG user etc - dont mind

Well, you have choices:

The Infiltrator : You sneak up into a firing position, take the shot, and then sneak out without anyone being the wiser. [Also comes in Magic]

Fire Support : You have a big gun and know how to use it. You just plunk down in a sniper's nest, cover up in camo, and wait for your cue.

Overwatch : Sometimes you need an eye in the sky. You get into a good position to watch the action and then respond as needed. [Also comes in Magic]

Captain Longshot : You're too pretty to get into the thick of things, so you hang back where your longarm and comm suite lets you support the troops as you coordinate. [Also comes in Magic]

Think about what kind of style appeals to you - there's a lot more to being a 'runner than killing guys.

[Man With Dog]

Well, you have choices:

The Infiltrator : You sneak up into a firing position, take the shot, and then sneak out without anyone being the wiser. [Also comes in Magic]

Fire Support : You have a big gun and know how to use it. You just plunk down in a sniper's nest, cover up in camo, and wait for your cue.

Overwatch : Sometimes you need an eye in the sky. You get into a good position to watch the action and then respond as needed. [Also comes in Magic]

Captain Longshot : You're too pretty to get into the thick of things, so you hang back where your longarm and comm suite lets you support the troops as you coordinate. [Also comes in Magic]

Think about what kind of style appeals to you - there's a lot more to being a 'runner than killing guys.

See they all sound pretty awesome. I need to go out and spend some pennies on some of this stuff and any extra splat like books i can get.
Hope its not as pricey as DnD books get

[Oracle_Hunter]

See they all sound pretty awesome. I need to go out and spend some pennies on some of this stuff and any extra splat like books i can get.
Hope its not as pricey as DnD books get

Don't bother with splats. Just get the core rulebook (1 book) - it has all the rules you need to run a game without Riggers or Deckers.

Also: those were just some concepts I made up on the spot. Feel free to make your own.

[Man With Dog]

Don't bother with splats. Just get the core rulebook (1 book) - it has all the rules you need to run a game without Riggers or Deckers.

Also: those were just some concepts I made up on the spot. Feel free to make your own.

More of a case of thinking just what you wanan do - rogue-ish, Schwarzenegger style etc and picking the abilities and weaponry you can to echo that kinda style

[Oracle_Hunter]

More of a case of thinking just what you wanan do - rogue-ish, Schwarzenegger style etc and picking the abilities and weaponry you can to echo that kinda style

Yes, though there are certain builds that are mechanically interesting.

For example, an Aspected Infiltrator can drop an Improved Invisibility spell into a Power Focus to gain active camo. You can even take some cyberware so long as you don't need any high Force spells.

In the alternative, a Shamatic Infiltrator has a lot of fun getting a Spirit to Conceal them while they're moving around.

The important thing is to have an Ares Predator with EX Ammo and a Silencer for close-in work. Smart-Link it up and you can whisper "boom, headshot" all day

[Man With Dog]

Yes, though there are certain builds that are mechanically interesting.

For example, an Aspected Infiltrator can drop an Improved Invisibility spell into a Power Focus to gain active camo. You can even take some cyberware so long as you don't need any high Force spells.

In the alternative, a Shamatic Infiltrator has a lot of fun getting a Spirit to Conceal them while they're moving around.

The important thing is to have an Ares Predator with EX Ammo and a Silencer for close-in work. Smart-Link it up and you can whisper "boom, headshot" all day

I have jsut been told were going t be running v4.0
I am guessing that doesnt change too much of what you said or does it drastically alter it?

Either way, i definitely need to grab at least the first book in this and have a good read up

[Oracle_Hunter]

I have jsut been told were going t be running v4.0
I am guessing that doesnt change too much of what you said or does it drastically alter it?

Either way, i definitely need to grab at least the first book in this and have a good read up

Somewhat, but probably not in any way you'd notice.

If you need a rules summary, try this handy and enlightening link.

[Man With Dog]

Double Post

[GreyMantle]

I have jsut been told were going t be running v4.0
I am guessing that doesnt change too much of what you said or does it drastically alter it?

Either way, i definitely need to grab at least the first book in this and have a good read up

Honestly, I suspect a lot of people on this board are giving 4E a bad rep. The rules are simplified in general, but they also work much better. The character creation takes longer, but it also allows for greater customization. Instead of being totally unplayable, PC hackers only cease to be viable when you try to powergame the system, which is probably an improvement.

The fluff...well, the fluff is different. There's no getting around that. But the thing to keep in mind is that the first 3 editions were all built around 80s and 90s ideas of technology, with things like limited memory, wires sticking out of everything, etc. But we already have this really neat thing called ethernet that allows for wireless access to Teh Interwebz, and it's not even 2029 yet. So, really, 3rd edition and lower have entered that, "fun but in a very retro, outdated way" stage of sf where the present has totally caught up to the future, but mostly in ways no one could've predicted. In contrast, 4E is probably on the borderline between "classic" (read: no longer accurate) cyberpunk and a more realistic (or at least plausible), um...let's call it "transhuman."

Now that is by no means a bad thing. But especially if you're a huge Gibson fan, the changes are likely to make you go all "b-but b-but b-but...???!!!!" And do really keep in mind that the underlying mechanics in 4E are much smoother and better than any prior edition of Shadowrun.

[SuperCracker]

My biggest problem with 4E: It took ALL of the juice out of melee combat.

Outside of an extremely highly specialized punching adept with the ranged attack ability, it's not a viable tactic anymore. Complex action vs. guns that are simple action. Only one mundane modification can be made on melee weapons.

Meanwhile, the street sam with his SMG burst-fires on you twice in the same turn with his tricked-out gun.

Other than that, 4E is actually a pretty fun system.

[Timeras]

Firing a weapon in SA or BF mode has always been a simple action. A Character depending on Melee was just as dead in 2nd or 3rd edition as he ist in 4th.

And that is not a bad thing. The rules shouldn't encourage attacking people carrying guns with a knife or a baseball bat.

[Sasha Tate]

Shadowrun was an awesome game and a real blast. However it is very dependent on the storyteller running it. We were a group called "problem solvers Inc." and we had a mage, a sniper, a technomancer, a conwoman (me), and a samurai. Ironically I was one of the most vital members getting us access, distracting cops, coming up with excuses for why we failed, and generally oiling the gears. The ST had a houserule that made the mage and S.S. vital: elementals and manifested spirits were highly resistant to modern weapons. You had to get close and dirty to take them out. And there is nothing more thrilling than driving the get away car while an tornado spirit is chasing you. Boy we pissed off the natives something fierce...

[DeltaEmil]

Spirits have always been highly resistant against modern weapons, which is why Shadowrun is another game where mages rule and mundanes drool, at least most times.
However, the deadliness of the game (you effectively only have 10-20 hit points, so to speak, and there's a lot of special attacks that bypass your overmaxed defenses) does not make the disparity that aggravating.

There are still some D&D-istic elements that should have gone the way of the extinct dodo in Shadowrun, like monsters that drain your essence (vampires, blood spirits and other nasty stuff, created to punish highly cybered characters), monsters that drain your karma points (your xp), monsters with the ability to force you to reroll or automatically negate your edge-rolls (so that you cannot and must not ever win against a dragon, but the community is so far ahead of the developers), elven "supernations" that have weird "supergear" (which in truth all suck, and at least the american Tyr is a bankrupt and impoverished country where the immortal elves have failed in every regard to keep up with modern times), "supermagic" traditions (they've been toned down somewhat for now), and magical items, weapons, equipment or spirits that can only be used by NPCs and fail horribly in the hands of player characters.