[3.5] At what level should one be allowed this cohort?

[Frosty]

The standard rules make many monsters not viable or legal for cohorts, since Leadership is based on ECL, which as we all know is borked as the whole Racial Hit Dice + LA is borked. So, I;m trying to get a sense of when certain monsters should be allowed as Cohorts, based logically on how much said monster brings to the table.

At what ECL do you believe that the following should be allowed as cohorts:


Pleasure Devil (Brachina)
T-rex
Kolyarut (Inevitable)
Marut (Inevitable)
Nymph
Shadesteel Golem

Some of these cohorts will obviously be more powerful for certain characters, like the Shadesteel golem with a necropolitan Dread Necromancer for example. Assume that none of these creatures are advanced or have any templates for now.

[Urpriest]

T-Rexes are nonsentient, and thus can't be traditional cohorts. Use Wild Cohort. Since it's based on when Druids can get T-Rex companions, it won't be borked like LA normally is.

[Frosty]

I know, but I'm ignoring the normal Leadership rules right now. Just based on how powerful it is, when do you think these creatures should be allowed to tag along as a companion of some sort?

[Urpriest]

I know, but I'm ignoring the normal Leadership rules right now. Just based on how powerful it is, when do you think these creatures should be allowed to tag along as a companion of some sort?

Use the same level at which Druids can get them then (for the T-Rex, Druids can't get Pleasure Devils without special dispensation).

[Frosty]

I don't think Druids get Planar Binding...

[iDM]

Nymphs are not very strong, but they have an impressive array of other abilities; their ability to charm animals makes me think that the character should be 12th level at least before s/he is allowed a nymph cohort.

Also, would an Inevitable even allow itself to be a cohort? Unless the PC was on a quest to destroy/punish the same creature that the Inevitable was sent to punish, having an Inevitable cohort doesn't seem likely.

[Marnath]

More likely you'd be the inevitables co-hort, and it would abandon you after the missiom. As to nymphs, don't they like, die if they get too far from their pool?

[Jack_Simth]

More likely you'd be the inevitables co-hort, and it would abandon you after the missiom. As to nymphs, don't they like, die if they get too far from their pool?

Not in D&D 3.5 (although Dryads have such a limitation for their trees).

The Nymph has an ECL (13 - 6 RHD, +7 LA) - so that'll work, no problem, at 15th (if you have the Leadership score).

Inevitables simply don't make sense as cohorts. They have a specific mission, built into their type. They're... fixed... and aren't followers.

The Brachina is noticably stronger than the Succubus (succubus is ECL 12), and so it really doesn't make sense until Epic or near-Epic.

A Shadesteel Golem: You build it or buy it, and it is completely Mindless. Why use Leadership when you can just have one?

[Frosty]

SO you think that the Brachina's abilities are strong enough that only a near-epic character should have one? Or that a Nymph's casting as a 7th level druid + Blinding beauty + Stunning Glance is as strong as a 13th level druid cohort (who would have his own Animal companion too of course)?

[FelixG]

You might consider using Pathfinders deal where the CR is their LA?

[Jack_Simth]

SO you think that the Brachina's abilities are strong enough that only a near-epic character should have one? Or that a Nymph's casting as a 7th level druid + Blinding beauty + Stunning Glance is as strong as a 13th level druid cohort (who would have his own Animal companion too of course)?

That's not what I said. Kindly try to avoid putting words in my mouth.

ECL's not perfect, but ECL (or something like ECL), is needed for game balance. Sure, it goes overboard in many instances, but the Evolved Undead Vampire Sorcerer-13 is not the equivalent of a Necropolitan Sorcerer-13. Some adjustment is needed. I'm comparing to similar critters that you can get as cohorts legally and currently.

A Succubus is ECL 12: 6 racial hit dice, +6 LA. The Brachina has no listed LA and 12 racial hit dice. However, the stat boosts and special abilities are, of themselves, at least as strong as what the Succubus gets. So I'm guesstimating the Brachina's LA at about the same as the Succubus: +6. Making the ECL about 18. As regular Leadership caps off at 17, that means Epic or near epic levels.

The Nymph has a listed LA (+7) and 6 racial hit dice, making it ECL 13. Is it the most optimal cohort? No. But then, a Druid-13 cohort and a Monk-13 cohort are not equal anyway. Nor is the Wizard-10/Incantatrix-3.

As for using ECL vs. CR:
There are abilities that are more useful in the hands of players (ECL) than they are in the hands of opponents (CR). For example, a Vampire's Dominate gaze and ability to make spawn are primarily an excuse for the vampire to have lots of minions. However, any minions the vampire might have by virtue of the abilities are included in the encounter level for purposes of XP gain after defeating them, treasure, and so on. Essentially, the Vampire's Dominate and Create Spawn abilities are just a simple explanation for the vampire having minions... which BBEG's get anyway. The Dominate gaze also has some use in combat as a save-or-lose. However, for the PC (who does not normally get minions), disposable slaves become really, really useful. Likewise, the Vampire's Fast Healing will only rarely impact a battle (over 4 rounds Fast Healing 5 works out to 20 hit points... which at those levels, is about one melee hit) - but it saves the Vampire Player a large chunk of cash in non-combat healing - making it more useful for a player than an opponent.

[Frosty]

I'm comparing to similar critters that you can get as cohorts legally and currently.

But that is not what I am asking for. The current system of ECl and CR are already borked to high hell and back. What I am asking for is an eyeballing of what *ought* to be fair in your opinion, not what fits within the existing guidelines (since I do not wish to use said existing guidelines).

This may very well vary with the optimization level of the game though.

I apologize if I sounded like if I put words in your mouth. I meant to ask, "So *do* you feel that..." as a question, not an assumption.

[Mojo_Rat]

Pahtfinders CR as level rules for monsters have a bunch of caviets but it mainly intended for monsters that dont haveracial HD.

Secondly there is a rule soemwhere though i cant remember where its written that says if a monster is being used as a cohort and it has racial HD i think you add 5 to its Cr to determine when youg et it.

so a Green hag is level 10
then once you have it as a cohort it levels normally based on its HD.

Other than all that the stuff people ahve said about the LA seems to all make sense.

[icefractal]

What the OP was asking is, on their own merits, what level would these be balanced as cohorts. Personally, I would determine this by comparing them to a standard PC-classed cohort.

So the Nymph. 7th-level Druid casting. Obviously, it's better than a standard 7th level Druid - or is it? No animal companion, no wildshape. Charisma to saves and AC, but the AC still isn't that great. Blinding Beauty is ok, but how many humanoids do you fight? Stunning Glance is good, but does it make up for that loss? Maybe, but just by a little. I would put this at approximately equivalent to a 7th-8th level cohort, so you'd need to be level 9 or 10 to take it.
NOTE: This is assuming it has ability scores as per the MM. If you give it improved stats (by taking the implied modifiers and applying them to 28pb, frex), then that could be worth another level or two.

I'll try one of the others later.

[Another_Poet]

I know, but I'm ignoring the normal Leadership rules right now. Just based on how powerful it is, when do you think these creatures should be allowed to tag along as a companion of some sort?

I would compare the CR of each to the CR of various animal companions, and allow them at the same level a Druid would get them minus one. The "minus one" is because they aren't getting all the benefits of an Animal Companion (nat AC boosts, etc.) so I'd give access one level earlier, unless the creature has really fierce Su or SLA powers.

[Sindri]

I generally say that the HD of a cohort can't be higher than the leader's level -2, but their ECL can be up to what the table says, so someone with a high leadership score can effectively ignore the LA.
Really it needs to be decided on a case-by-case basis, depending on who's trying to get what, because any all-encompassing rules would need to be heavily play-tested, but I have no problem with, say, an 8th level character with leadership score of 17 having a succubus cohort, even if RAW says they need to be level 14 first.

In most cases, I ignore what the MM says about LA for monsters and go with what I feel appropriate; usually ECL becomes CR +1 or 2, unless it has some easily abused ability, casting ability above what a character of that level would have, or more HD than the ECL that would give them. For example, a lizardman (2RHD, +1LA, CR1) would become ECL 2, because with just their racial abilities they're about the same as a level 1 or 2 fighter, but a lot less than a level 3 character. A succubus (6RHD, +6LA, CR7) would probably be about ECL 9, because they have a lot of powers that could be very powerful if used right, but they're nowhere near a 12th level character.

[Frosty]

What the OP was asking is, on their own merits, what level would these be balanced as cohorts. Personally, I would determine this by comparing them to a standard PC-classed cohort.

So the Nymph. 7th-level Druid casting. Obviously, it's better than a standard 7th level Druid - or is it? No animal companion, no wildshape. Charisma to saves and AC, but the AC still isn't that great. Blinding Beauty is ok, but how many humanoids do you fight? Stunning Glance is good, but does it make up for that loss? Maybe, but just by a little. I would put this at approximately equivalent to a 7th-8th level cohort, so you'd need to be level 9 or 10 to take it.
NOTE: This is assuming it has ability scores as per the MM. If you give it improved stats (by taking the implied modifiers and applying them to 28pb, frex), then that could be worth another level or two.

I'll try one of the others later.

Thank you. This is the kinda analysis I'm looking for. For the stats I'm not sure yet. I mean, when you get a normal humanoid cohort you don't go with all 10s and then apply racial mods right?

[Toliudar]

Frosty, it seems that since you are dissatisfied with the current process, it might be useful for you to evaluate one of the existing creatures that's got a cohort LA rating, so that we can guage how you're valuing them. When I took a look at the at-will SLA's of the Marut and Kolyarut, they were such that I'd have placed them as the equivalent of a 16-18th level cohort. But then, I tend to ban Leadership outright. How would you rate, say, an androsphinx or nightmare?

[Frosty]

The Nightmare? It's like a slightly tougher pegasus. Assuming that its Astral Projection and Etherealness can only affect itself and not others, then it's not much stronger than the pegasus. More HP sure. Slightly more damaging attacks. The Smoke ability might hinder your allies since only the nightmare itself is unaffected.

I dunno enough about the Androsphinx.

[Zen Master]

Heh - I would allow none of them, ever. Some are summons, others are constructs (meaning, you want it as a cohort, you construct it), and one is an animal companion.

Maybe the nymph. Provided, naturally, the character was a druid or an elf or something, and prepared to stay at the nymphs glade.

[Telonius]

Another factor you might want to take into account ... gear. Normally a cohort gets a share of the loot, which it uses to buy its own gear. I don't know that a golem or a T-Rex would have much use for GP. Since either one of those cohorts would effectively give their master a boost in GP available, that ought to be considered in the balance.

[Frosty]

Another factor you might want to take into account ... gear. Normally a cohort gets a share of the loot, which it uses to buy its own gear. I don't know that a golem or a T-Rex would have much use for GP. Since either one of those cohorts would effectively give their master a boost in GP available, that ought to be considered in the balance.

Even a druid would want to spend gold on his Companion anyways becuase he wants the companion to survive. Barding and such. The shadesteel golem is probably humanoid enough to wear a lot of the standard items without trouble.