More 4.4 info

[Kurald Galain]

Here's some updates on the new things in 4.4,

Dwarves used to get a bonus to con and wis; they can now pick con/str as an alternative. Likewise, halflings used to be dex/cha, and can now also pick dex/con. Similar changes apply to every race reprinted in 4.4, except humans.
Humans can, instead a third at-will, take an encounter power that retroactively adds +4 to an attack or saving throw. This strikes me as a huge improvement, and of course several of the 4.4 builds don't have at-will attacks anyway.

Implements are simplified: if you're proficient with an implement, you can use it with all implement powers. No more limits like "you can use this implement with powers from that class only". This is easier on players, but it affects certain weird combos with weapons used as an implement, such as the bola-caster.

Several powers will be updated / errata'd, and will be reprinted in their new form in the 4.4 books. It is unclear how many powers are affected; but examples from the most recent errata include e.g. Magic Missile, Tumble, and Bless. Notably, several wizard encounter powers will get a miss effect. Of course, the classes also get new powers.

Feats will be grouped by category, although this has no in-game effect. More importantly, 4.4 feats no longer have "paragon tier" or "epic tier" as a prerequisite, meaning they're all available at level one. They can still scale with tiers, the way Weapon Focus does. Incidentally, the melee training feat now only adds half its ability modifier to damage.

And the Red Box is intended for first-time players, and contains a simplified and more limited version of character generation via a solo adventure. The PHB in the Red Box consists mostly of this solo adventure.

[Nu]

Implements are simplified: if you're proficient with an implement, you can use it with all implement powers. No more limits like "you can use this implement with powers from that class only". This is easier on players, but it affects certain weird combos with weapons used as an implement, such as the bola-caster.

Oh thank goodness, I always thought implements were rather haphazard in their current state.

I really like the dwarf change (because I like playing dwarves for flavor reasons), but I'm concerned about the power level. STR/CON and Second Wind as a minor are going to be very hard to pass up for many classes that favor STR/CON, and dwarves were already very strong choices for those.

Too bad about Melee Training though.

[Orzel]

Well these changes aren't bad. Like the dwarf one.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm concerned about the power level. STR/CON and Second Wind as a minor are going to be very hard to pass up for many classes that favor STR/CON

True, but I find that having a +1 on your secondary stat is not nearly as big a deal as the forums make it out to be. Sure, it's nice to have +str and +dex on a brutal rogue; but of you only get +dex, the net effect is doing one point less damage on sneak attack, which is hardly the end of the world.

Too bad about Melee Training though.

Yes, but I rather like this: it reduces it from a feat tax (for certain builds) to a competitive choice.

[Nu]

True, but I find that having a +1 on your secondary stat is not nearly as big a deal as the forums make it out to be. Sure, it's nice to have +str and +dex on a brutal rogue; but of you only get +dex, the net effect is doing one point less damage on sneak attack, which is hardly the end of the world.

That is true, but for dwarves, this is giving them a +2 to a primary stat for many classes they were already very good at. I think it's less about the +1 to riders and more about getting the +2 Strength on top of the rather strong racial feat support, and Second Wind as a minor action. At a glance, I would definitely not have much reason to even consider playing a human over a dwarf for a Fighter or Warden.

...Well, okay, that could be a bit of an exaggeration. A bonus feat/at-will isn't bad... still, I always felt like the one thing that made me reconsider playing a dwarf in those cases was the lack of boost to a primary stat, and now that's gone.

[Coidzor]

So... what is this? A rules update that's simultaneous with a change in the printing schema?

Or something more along the lines of a launch?

[BobVosh]

Feats will be grouped by category, although this has no in-game effect. More importantly, 4.4 feats no longer have "paragon tier" or "epic tier" as a prerequisite, meaning they're all available at level one. They can still scale with tiers, the way Weapon Focus does. Incidentally, the melee training feat now only adds half its ability modifier to damage.

I like these changes and the humans one seems powerful, but then again I don't really play second ed.

So... what is this? A rules update that's simultaneous with a change in the printing schema?

Or something more along the lines of a launch?

Well, there is 4ed AD&D, and this one is basically 4ed D&D. Just removing the "advance" bit. Its basically a simpler version, not required for any 4ed game. Has a few neat options, but that is it.

Ignoring Kuralds little tongue in cheek, its actually called 4ed essentials, I believe.

[Coidzor]

Well, there is 4ed AD&D, and this one is basically 4ed D&D. Just removing the "advance" bit. Its basically a simpler version, not required for any 4ed game. Has a few neat options, but that is it.

Ignoring Kuralds little tongue in cheek, its actually called 4ed essentials, I believe.

... ... ... Ok, other than the whole multiple books thing, which is circumvented by them wanting you to buy the bloody character builder anyway, what was advanced about 4e that they were capable of dumbing it downsimplifying it?

It already seemed rather bare-bones.

[Nu]

... ... ... Ok, other than the whole multiple books thing, which is circumvented by them wanting you to buy the bloody character builder anyway, what was advanced about 4e that they were capable of dumbing it downsimplifying it?

It already seemed rather bare-bones.

Well, for one thing, they removed daily attack powers from martial classes and gave them all at-will powers aimed at boosting basic attacks.

[Kurald Galain]

... ... ... Ok, other than the whole multiple books thing, which is circumvented by them wanting you to buy the bloody character builder anyway, what was advanced about 4e that they were capable of dumbing it downsimplifying it?

Primarily (1) an array of options that is bewildering to certain beginning players, and (2) people complaining that martial classes have maneuvers they can only use once per five minutes, or once per day. And, well, marketing of course.

Every class in 4E is easier to play than a 3E druid. But then, every class in 4E is harder to play than a 3E fighter.

[Erom]

Love the feat changes.

Love the implement changes.

Love that they're breaking the "every class gets X at-will, X encounter, X daily" paradigm. I know the psionic classes were already bending those rules, but it's nice to see some more variation.

Not really excited about the power errata but I spoke to one of the DnD guys at a con who was VERY excited about being able to squeeze so much errata into a single book set, so I guess I will be cautiously optimistic about it.

Don't much care for the new racial bonus set up but I was already living with it since it's not exactly new.

All in all, a bunch of changes I wish had been in 4e in the first place. I feel like after Essentials 4e will be a much more complete game system, but they burned the "early adopters" a little bit getting there.

Glad I spent my money on once-every-6-months character builder updates rather than buying all the books, though. Hope they don't close that loophole!

[Eliort]

So by the 4.4 update, does that mean that my bard can use his songblade to cast his multiclass implement powers? If so, hooray! That was how I thought it worked at first until the character generator told me otherwise!

This also makes the superior implement training feat MUCH more handy to have!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmm... the more I hear of these changes, the more interesting it sounds.

Unfortunately, the more interesting 4.4 becomes, the less likely 4.0 is to be continued.

[Reverent-One]

So they've weakened Melee Training, unsurprising given the new builds. I wonder what they're going to do about all the other items and feats that boost basic attacks. Given that the Basic Attack focused builds don't have daily powers, it could just be they'll leave most of the other basic attack boosters untouched, so a thief rogue does more damage and has a higher attack when it comes to an at-will or encounter timetable, but other rogue builds will make up for this with Daily powers.

Hmm... the more I hear of these changes, the more interesting it sounds.

Unfortunately, the more interesting 4.4 becomes, the less likely 4.0 is to be continued.

OH, what is it about the Essentials stuff released thus far that says "I'm 4.4, not 4.0" to you?

[valadil]

So by the 4.4 update, does that mean that my bard can use his songblade to cast his multiclass implement powers? If so, hooray! That was how I thought it worked at first until the character generator told me otherwise!

This also makes the superior implement training feat MUCH more handy to have!

As far as I'm aware, D&D Essentials isn't an update or errata. It's a separate game for people who want a gentler intro to D&D than jumping straight to 4e. You're more than welcome to try and convince your GM to incorporate some of the Essentials changes, but I don't think they'll be considered core.

[Kurald Galain]

As far as I'm aware, D&D Essentials isn't an update or errata. It's a separate game for people who want a gentler intro to D&D than jumping straight to 4e. You're more than welcome to try and convince your GM to incorporate some of the Essentials changes, but I don't think they'll be considered core.

Core is being errata'ed to incorporate those changes made in 4.4. This has started in the previous set of errata, and is to prevent two different versions of a feat, power, race, or item existing with the same name.

[Reverent-One]

As far as I'm aware, D&D Essentials isn't an update or errata. It's a separate game for people who want a gentler intro to D&D than jumping straight to 4e. You're more than welcome to try and convince your GM to incorporate some of the Essentials changes, but I don't think they'll be considered core.

Yes, the Essentials line is an simpler approach to 4e. No, it's not a seperate game. Essentials is meant to be fully compatible with non-Essentials books.

[Oracle_Hunter]

OH, what is it about the Essentials stuff released thus far that says "I'm 4.4, not 4.0" to you?

(1) A lot of the changes are not being incorporated into Errata, even though they make fine sense. The Implement one, for example.

(2) 4.4 is starting to look like it's built on different design philosophies than 4.0; philosophies sufficiently different to warrant it being a "new system." And if 4.4 is a new system, then 4.0 is likely to go the way of 3.0 when 3.5 came out.

Of course, these are just hunches - I obviously have no inside information.

[Reverent-One]

(1) A lot of the changes are not being incorporated into Errata, even though they make fine sense. The Implement one, for example.

The question is, are they not being incorporated into the 4e Updates at all, or have they simply not been incorporated yet? Using the example of the Implement Change, if they don't stick that into the errata for pre-Essentials books, what happens if an Invoker multi-classes Cleric and takes powers from the Essentials books for Clerics (since if I remember correctly Invokers don't use Holy Symbols)? Or a Warpriest Cleric multiclasses anything not in the Essentials line? You'll have conflicting rules, which isn't going to work.

(2) 4.4 is starting to look like it's built on different design philosophies than 4.0; philosophies sufficiently different to warrant it being a "new system." And if 4.4 is a new system, then 4.0 is likely to go the way of 3.0 when 3.5 came out

Fair enough. I'm sure I've made it clear that I myself don't see much of any fundemental changes in design philosophies thus far, but of course the way I see things is not the way everyone sees things. I think for this we'll just have to wait for the Essentials books, and more importantly, the books AFTER the Essentials books for anything concrete.

[Artanis]

I think for this we'll just have to wait for the Essentials books, and more importantly, the books AFTER the Essentials books for anything concrete.

You aren't alone

[Mando Knight]

Unfortunately, the more interesting 4.4 becomes, the less likely 4.0 is to be continued.

Remember that 4.4 is just Kurald's tongue-in-cheek method of referring to the Essentials changes. Wizards is still claiming that it's the same edition all the way to the presses.

[Hzurr]

I've read a few reports of people playing essentials classes along side regular 4E classes, and apparently it went pretty smoothly. No big power difference; no real difference in building adventures/encounters, or whatever.

For now, I'll stay optimistic, and take WotC at their word that Essentials are just a new way of building classes, and everything is still legal/legit.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Remember that 4.4 is just Kurald's tongue-in-cheek method of referring to the Essentials changes. Wizards is still claiming that it's the same edition all the way to the presses.

Certainly, but IIRC Wizards was speaking much the same way on the road to releasing 3.5 too.

Let's just say I trust WotC's press releases about as far as I can throw their corporate headquarters

[Marnath]

Wait, so they're dumbing it down more? It wasn't video-gamey enough?

[Hzurr]

{Scrubbed}

The idea is that now that there are 3 PHBs, 2 books of nothing but items, and however many power X books; things are a bit overwhelming to new players. (Having just introduced the game to a newbie, I agree with this statement), so it's just new ways of building classes to make in a bit more streamlined to bring new people in.

[Coidzor]

{Scrubbed}

Well, maybe. I found the Living Forgotten Realms enjoyable, but, well, pretty much like a cooperative game of Final Fantasy Tactics.

Now, I enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics, but, it really does remind me of it something fierce.

I even imagine the little glowing overlays that shoot out from the characters over the squares before they use a power.

I know, I know, those tactics games are based on table top games even more so. In fact, it's kinda funny to see the flowing of thought from them back into tabletop games.

[Nu]

Well, maybe. I found the Living Forgotten Realms enjoyable, but, well, pretty much like a cooperative game of Final Fantasy Tactics.

Now, I enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics, but, it really does remind me of it something fierce.

I even imagine the little glowing overlays that shoot out from the characters over the squares before they use a power.

I know, I know, those tactics games are based on table top games even more so. In fact, it's kinda funny to see the flowing of thought from them back into tabletop games.

I WISH there was a FFT-ish video game that worked with the 4E rules. Problem is that I simply think there are too many conditionals and out-of-turn events for a video game.

[Lans]

I WISH there was a FFT-ish video game that worked with the 4E rules. Problem is that I simply think there are too many conditionals and out-of-turn events for a video game.

Not really, just have a system that has a second pause after every action in which time you have a chance to pause and use immediate reactions.

[Nu]

Not really, just have a system that has a second pause after every action in which time you have a chance to pause and use immediate reactions.

That would be incredibly annoying, though. For both player and programmer. At least how I'm envisioning it.

[Nu]

As someone who hadn't really followed the development of 4e after it's initial launch, can somone explain to me what 4.4 is? I see above, there is 4e D&D and 4e AD&D?

If I'm understanding correctly, 4.4 is to 4 as Castles & Crusades is to 3.X D&D?

...and is this something that was really needed, or basically a "sub edition" akin to 3.5...debatably to fix known issues and/or a naked money grab?

(Bit of history - I'm a dedicated 3.5 player. My group was 1e AD&D and then 2e AD&D. After a several year break, we re-formed and launched into 3.5 - our hiatus meant we missed 3.0 altogether. A few of us tried a game or two of 4e after it was first launched, but it just didn't "ring our bell".)

Obstinately it's just some additional material for 4E. The actual name of the product is "D&D Essentials." 4.4 nicknaming comes from the apparent "drastic" (depending on who you ask) shift in design philosophy.