Paladin of Freedom [3.5]

[Human Paragon 3]

One of my players, a barbarian, just recently multiclassed into Paladin of Freedom and he is taking the roleplaying restrictions seriously. This is a good thing IMO, but I've never really had to deal with a paladin on this level before. I definitely do not want to tell him how to roleplay his character. I consider it my job as a DM to heard the cats together and keep the action moving as long as the players aren't actively working against me.

So what kind of actions should I expect from a Chaotic/Good paladin? What situations should I throw at him to test his beliefs in a way that won't cause the game to devolve? Is it OK for him to coup-de-gras evil people just because they're evil and unconscious? Or is that an act of evil in and of itself? Basically, how should I prepare myself for an unpredictable crusader of good?

[hamishspence]

The Easydamus definition of Chaotic Good:

http://easydamus.com/chaoticgood.html

might be a good place to start. The SRD also has a few basic principles for the Paladin of Freedom to follow.

Dragon 310 has its own CG paladin variant, the Avenger- some ideas could be drawn from that.

[Keld Denar]

Give him some oppresive LE society to undermine. Richard's actions in the book Faith of the Fallen are exactly what I'd expect a Pally of Freedom to do under similar circumstances.

Otherwise, it could be just as simple as being an anti-slavery advocate, teaching, preaching, and smiting in the name of individual determination. You could present him with slave owners of varying degrees of evility, and see how he approaches each one. Does he smite first, or is he willing to accept and forgive someone who, through social conditioning, didn't realize the level of disregard for human nature he was participating in.

[Aroka]

You say you want to test his beliefs, but that all depends on his beliefs.

Paladins need a defined dogma: a code of conduct, a code of chivalry, a deity with a defined agenda and dogma and rules, something like that.

In general, though, to test a PoF's faith, you should put him in situations where freedom has "gone wrong" - have him untangle situations where one being's freedoms have infringed on another's, in essence. Put him in circumstances where lack of rules or control appears to be the problem. Make him want to limit others' freedoms but have to persevere championing them.

[WinWin]

I have always imagined the PoF as something akin to an activist or millitant hippie. Still a champion of good, but willing to defy societal conventions and traditions.

[Telonius]

Is it OK for him to coup-de-gras evil people just because they're evil and unconscious? Or is that an act of evil in and of itself?

Act of evil in and of itself. That's Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Good. While using unorthodox tactics is more of a Chaotic thing, just pinging as Evil on the detect spell - absent any other information - tells you absolutely nothing about what the person has actually done.

If you're talking about killing a single cruel slave-master in his sleep to allow the rest of the slaves to escape, that might qualify as something a CG Paladin would conceivably do. But just for pinging Evil? No way.

[Aroka]

Act of evil in and of itself. That's Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Good. While using unorthodox tactics is more of a Chaotic thing, just pinging as Evil on the detect spell - absent any other information - tells you absolutely nothing about what the person has actually done.

If you're talking about killing a single cruel slave-master in his sleep to allow the rest of the slaves to escape, that might qualify as something a CG Paladin would conceivably do. But just for pinging Evil? No way.

Agreed, but this may be past the level of ethical complexity that D&D settings usually bother to model. In some of them, being evil is grounds for being killed by the good guys. (And, heck, depending on the cosmology, that might make perfect sense.)

[Escheton]

The problem with this is that you can't railroad a paladin of freedom.
He might reason he doesn't have a choice because his beliefs/faith/dogma dictates he opposes the regime/saves the princess/whatever and reasserts his own freedom by doing something completely different or nothing at all.

[WinWin]

Perhaps an adaptation of Grey Guard from Complete Scoundrel would suit this character

[Aroka]

The problem with this is that you can't railroad a paladin of freedom.
He might reason he doesn't have a choice because his beliefs/faith/dogma dictates he opposes the regime/saves the princess/whatever and reasserts his own freedom by doing something completely different or nothing at all.

That's not how Chaotic works, etc.

[Escheton]

Its how freedom works.

[hamishspence]

Agreed, but this may be past the level of ethical complexity that D&D settings usually bother to model. In some of them, being evil is grounds for being killed by the good guys. (And, heck, depending on the cosmology, that might make perfect sense.)

3.5 ed in particular has tended to move away from "being evil is grounds for being killed by the good guys"- Eberron, Faerun, Heroes of Horror, BoED, all support the notion that good guys who kill others for "being evil" can expect to be jailed for murder under most circumstances.

[Snake-Aes]

Its how freedom works.

A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

I see no "OMG MUST OPPOSE LAW NAO". It's about bringing the freedom of choice to everyone, and if said "everyone" is happy abiding to a tradition, then the paladin of freedom has no business with it.

[Keld Denar]

What if everyone is brainwashed into thinking that they are happy abiding by tradition via social conditioning, and doesn't realize what they are involved in is actually oppression of individualistic rights. You'd get a pretty massive resistance to change, simply because people would have no concept of an alternative life. Sometimes you have to shake things up a bit every now and again, just to make sure that people are always questioning their beliefs and whether or not those beliefs are in their collective best interests or not.

You don't always have to CHANGE things, as some things ARE really working as good as they should, but its ALWAYS good to stimulate change, as this results in reflection and reaffermation of the good while purging the bad.

[Escheton]

I see no "OMG MUST OPPOSE LAW NAO". It's about bringing the freedom of choice to everyone, and if said "everyone" is happy abiding to a tradition, then the paladin of freedom has no business with it.

Missing the point much?

The OP asked how he could put up situations that test his beliefs.
My point was you can't because he will liberate himself of his own beliefs if they stand in the way of his freedom of choice or his personal liberty in general. Though I might have stated it poorly.

[Snake-Aes]

Missing the point much?

The OP asked how he could put up situations that test his beliefs.
My point was you can't because he will liberate himself of his own beliefs if they stand in the way of his freedom of choice or his personal liberty in general.

Worst-of-two-worlds works. Little backwards village is oppressed by a blue dragon, who demands tributes and sacrifices a maiden every few years. He goes there to fight the dragon and the entire place opposes him because if the dragon goes away, there'll be no one to keep the land safe from bandits and stray monsters.
Does he free them, turning the village defenseless?


Also, what is the "point" to miss? You went and said "oh but i'm so chaotic i change my mind about those beliefs". Chaotic Alignment is not that. In fact, the class is called "Paladin of freedom", not "Paladin of whatever i feel like at the time". You still have beliefs and ideals that you won't give up on.

[Human Paragon 3]

Thanks for the ideas so far guys. FYI this is for my Silver Hellstar campaign.

Right now they are headed to a city under the thumb of a ruthless, evil dictator so there should be tons of fun for my barbarous paladin. The dictator is also the high priest of Asmodeus, so bonus points there!

What do you think of this scenario:

An important person in the evil government is parlaying with the party. He admits that the system they're using is not perfect, and that he is striving to make things better for the people here. He believes his cause is just, and makes an offer to the paladin:

Join our side and become an overseer in the slave pits. There you'll have the power to make the lives of the oppressed better and insure that the institution is phased out, as I have promised to do. If you don't accept, we'll still phase out slavery as an institution, but you'll have no control over how it's done, and it's too big for you to oppose yourself from the outside.

[AtwasAwamps]

Missing the point much?

The OP asked how he could put up situations that test his beliefs.
My point was you can't because he will liberate himself of his own beliefs if they stand in the way of his freedom of choice or his personal liberty in general. Though I might have stated it poorly.

I feel like this is a definite misinterpretation of the Paladin of Freedom's vows. They are just as selfless and determined as a regular paladin. They're not fighting for THEIR freedom...they're fighting for everyone's freedom. And if that sacrifices a part of their own individual freedom, then so be it...they have done it in the name of good.

Then again, I'm always of the opinion that Paladins are supposed to be a paragon of the Good/Evil alignments, and that lawful/chaotic are secondary to that, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

[Aroka]

Missing the point much?

The OP asked how he could put up situations that test his beliefs.
My point was you can't because he will liberate himself of his own beliefs if they stand in the way of his freedom of choice or his personal liberty in general. Though I might have stated it poorly.

But that's not what being Chaotic/a PoF means. No human being would ever behave in the way you've described - it's ridiculous, it's stupid. There's no reason a PoF would ever have to "become free" of the dogma that defines them as a PoF.

[Escheton]

Worst-of-two-worlds works. Little backwards village is oppressed by a blue dragon, who demands tributes and sacrifices a maiden every few years. He goes there to fight the dragon and the entire place opposes him because if the dragon goes away, there'll be no one to keep the land safe from bandits and stray monsters.
Does he free them, turning the village defenseless?


Also, what is the "point" to miss? You went and said "oh but i'm so chaotic i change my mind about those beliefs". Chaotic Alignment is not that. In fact, the class is called "Paladin of freedom", not "Paladin of whatever i feel like at the time". You still have beliefs and ideals that you won't give up on.

You are still clearly missing it. It's not about being chaotic. It's not do whatever you feel like. It's about being unrestrained. Even by yourself.
Yes, paladins of freedom have clear beliefs and ideals. You just have a very small minded view of what those are. Well, limited at least. And as such you are missing the point.

[hamishspence]

I feel like this is a definite misinterpretation of the Paladin of Freedom's vows. They are just as selfless and determined as a regular paladin. They're not fighting for THEIR freedom...they're fighting for everyone's freedom. And if that sacrifices a part of their own individual freedom, then so be it...they have done it in the name of good.

Then again, I'm always of the opinion that Paladins are supposed to be a paragon of the Good/Evil alignments, and that lawful/chaotic are secondary to that, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

I agree with that- for standard paladins, if Law was primary and Good secondary, the paladin would fall for Chaotic acts, and have Detect Chaos.

Since it doesn't work that way, it makes sense to put Good as primary for the standard paladin.

And, as written, for the Paladin of Freedom.

Similarly, the Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Slaughter (SRD, Unearthed Arcana) are Evil first, Law (or Chaos) second.

Of the Dragon Magazine variant paladin classes, only the Despot breaks the "Good/Evil is primary, law/chaos secondary" principle.

(the Despot must be LE, but gets Detect Chaos, Aura of Law, and falls for Chaotic acts).

[Snake-Aes]

You are still clearly missing it. It's not about being chaotic. It's not do whatever you feel like. It's about being unrestrained. Even by yourself.
Yes, paladins of freedom have clear beliefs and ideals. You just have a very small minded view of what those are. Well, limited at least. And as such you are missing the point.

Someone who gives up on whatever he is doing regardless of the consequences to others is Evil. The premise of the paladin of freedom is to defend the liberty of everyone.
Being Good-Aligned, they'd also feel immensely guilty of willingly giving up on a quest.


They are, as hamish said, Good First, Orderly/Chaotic Second. A paladin of freedom and a paladin of justice have a lot in common.

[Person_Man]

From a fluff point of view, I wouldn't ask or encourage him to have a strict code of ethics. He's supposed to embody freedom after all. He should only "fall" if he actively supports a regime (by accepting an official title or position of power) or commits clearly Evil acts (murdering the innocent, willingly helping demons, allowing a clearly unjust law to be executed when he could have directly prevented it, etc). And even then, it should be more of a "hey, does your God believe in that" and not "because you allowed that man to be arrested for jaywalking, you have lost your Paladin abilities."

From a crunch point of view, I would highly suggest Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/PrC X. Something like Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 3, Runescarred Berserker 10, Frostrager 5, Deepwarden 2, War Hulk 10, un-errata'd Weretouched Master 5, or Frenzied Berseker 10 (if you know exactly what you're doing). Barbarian 2+ and PoF 5+ are usually junk levels, especially when you multiclass.

[Caphi]

The paladin of freedom doesn't go out of his way to spit on law or authority. He just doesn't let it get in the way of him being a paladin. Sometimes he doesn't let it pretty hard.

[hamishspence]

He should only "fall" if he actively supports a regime (by accepting an official title or position of power) or commits clearly Evil acts (murdering the innocent, willingly helping demons, allowing a clearly unjust law to be executed when he could have directly prevented it, etc).

What if the regime's a Chaotic regime- an elven community, for example, if the paladin is an elf?

"willingly helping demons" is one of the iffier ones- very occasionally, an adventure may demand that the heroes ally themselves with demons against Worse Demons, so to speak. It features in D&D novels, and in the Savage Tide adventure path.

Another tricky question is whether murdering the "not innocent" counts as evil- say, a person who is evil and oppressive, but have never committed a crime that would merit the death penalty, even by the law code of a typical Good regime.

[Telonius]

Thanks for the ideas so far guys. FYI this is for my Silver Hellstar campaign.

Right now they are headed to a city under the thumb of a ruthless, evil dictator so there should be tons of fun for my barbarous paladin. The dictator is also the high priest of Asmodeus, so bonus points there!

What do you think of this scenario:

An important person in the evil government is parlaying with the party. He admits that the system they're using is not perfect, and that he is striving to make things better for the people here. He believes his cause is just, and makes an offer to the paladin:

Join our side and become an overseer in the slave pits. There you'll have the power to make the lives of the oppressed better and insure that the institution is phased out, as I have promised to do. If you don't accept, we'll still phase out slavery as an institution, but you'll have no control over how it's done, and it's too big for you to oppose yourself from the outside.

That's actually a pretty good dilemma for him. The government guy is clearly trying to do the right thing - he's a reformer generally working towards the same goals as the Paladin. But in order to do things the government guy's way, the Paladin would have to compromise his own ideals of freeing all the slaves immediately. Basically, he's offering a Neutral compromise. I wouldn't necessarily say he'd fall (i.e. commit an evil act) if he took the option, depending on how he conducted himself. But it is a neutral act. If he keeps making that sort of decision, his alignment would gradually change to NG.

For most players, I'd expect them to turn down the offer and try to find a more dramatic "free the slaves now!" solution. That would be more in keeping with the image I have of a Paladin of Freedom.

[hamishspence]

The tricky part is that being an overseer is almost bound to lead to the character having to oppress, at least a little.

"evil implies oppressing, hurting, and killing others"

It may not necessarily require all three.

"Oppression" might qualify as an evil act, in this case.

[Human Paragon 3]

Indeed, that is the trick. I would say serving as a slave overseer would be highly contrary to the code of a Paladin of Freedom.

However, that deal might actually be teamed with a Suggestion spell (devil's whispers invocation)...

[hamishspence]

Just as a possible temptation for a normal paladin, is to disregard legitimate authority for a "good" reason (maybe, to murder somebody that the law won't touch)

so here we have a temptation to support morally dubious authority for a "good" reason- the long-term good of the slaves.

Might be an interesting way for Chaotic paladins to slip into "ends justify means".

[Marnath]

What do the other PC's think about all this? I hope the paladin player doesn't take his class fluff as a reason to boss the party around like so many LG paladins do. I agree that a chaotic person is no more likely to betray their beliefs than a lawful person. They just see different paths leading to their goals than the lawful person does.