Question about Persist Spell

[Bobep]

I know you need extend spell in order to take persist, but can i extend a persisted spell in order to make it last 48 hours. Is there a ruling on this, or is it a dm decision?

[Endarire]

Since you can apply metamagic feats in any order, you can, with the right resources, make such a spell last 48 hours.

Keep buff sheets handy.

[Bobep]

Since you can apply metamagic feats in any order, you can, with the right resources, make such a spell last 48 hours.

Keep buff sheets handy.

Thanks to you sir.

[Gnaritas]

And i, as a DM, would not allow it...besides, everything is a DM decision...

[JaronK]

And i, as a DM, would not allow it...

Just like I don't allow Wizards or Clerics. A house rule.

JaronK

[ex cathedra]

And i, as a DM, would not allow it...besides, everything is a DM decision...

Oh, yeah? Have you had trouble with campaigns ruined by an Extended Persistent Shield cast from a ninth level slot? That is pretty intimidating. Seems like a sound call.

Because Persistent Spell, not abilities that circumvent a +6 spell level adjustment, is the problem.

[Gnaritas]

Oh, yeah? Have you had trouble with campaigns ruined by an Extended Persistent Shield cast from a ninth level slot? That is pretty intimidating. Seems like a sound call.

Because Persistent Spell, not abilities that circumvent a +6 spell level adjustment, is the problem.

Agreed. I was assuming DMM was involved. And while i do not disallow DMM, i allow only certain spells to be DMM-persisted (based on power-level). But doubling the amount of spells one can persist by extending them makes it even harder to keep it balanced, hence i do not allow it.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, yeah? Have you had trouble with campaigns ruined by an Extended Persistent Shield cast from a ninth level slot? That is pretty intimidating. Seems like a sound call.

Because Persistent Spell, not abilities that circumvent a +6 spell level adjustment, is the problem.

Persist is actually pretty weak without circumvention. As in, weak enough that I've never seen it used that way.

Of course, with incantatrix and a bit o' optimization, you can pull off some hilarious things(personally, I enjoy persisting ironguard. Metal weapons? No. Just no.). But it's clearly an area where the combination is worth a lot more than the sum of it's parts. Incantatrix without persist is a lot more reasonable. Persist is if anything, underpowered alone. Ironguard is balanced by itself. It's just that combining certain things gets silly.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Persist is actually pretty weak without circumvention. As in, weak enough that I've never seen it used that way.

Ahem. Seriously, the guide mentions using Persistent Hunter's Eye/Wraithstrike with absolutely no mentioning of cost reductions. And y'know, it's still a damn good option.

[Tyndmyr]

One guy suggests the possibility of persisting cloud of knives(ie, an effective 8th level spell after adjustment). In a build that centers around sneak attack.

Either you're going to end up losing some caster levels along the way, making 8th level spells fairly impractical until very late game, or you're going to have low sneak attack damage, resulting in a relatively low payoff.

One guy having a meh idea in an optimization thread isn't the same as actually using it in a game.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Er, did you not see the build stub in the opening post referring to Persisted Hunter's Eye/Wraithstrike?

[Eldariel]

One guy suggests the possibility of persisting cloud of knives(ie, an effective 8th level spell after adjustment). In a build that centers around sneak attack.

Either you're going to end up losing some caster levels along the way, making 8th level spells fairly impractical until very late game, or you're going to have low sneak attack damage, resulting in a relatively low payoff.

One guy having a meh idea in an optimization thread isn't the same as actually using it in a game.

It's actually very key for Arathion (from the Arcane Adventures) on high level; in general, the Rogue 1/Wizard/Unseen Seer-shell can make superb use of Persistent Spell once you get 7th-8th level spells (level 14-16). Granted, that's late, but then you get to persist all the key SA buffs that are swift actions but only last 1 round normally, making them unstackable.


This means you don't need to choose behind Arrow Mind, Sniper's Shot, Guided Shot, Chain of Eyes, Golemstrike, Vinestrike, Gravestrike and Hunter's Eye but get them all and constantly. Particularly Guided Shot/Sniper's Shot/Hunter's Eye trio is absolutely crucial to efficient Sneak Attacking. It just removes a crapton of problems at once. Then you can Metamagic School Focus yourself Persistent Divine Power through Arcane Disciple and 9th level slot, and finally go to town. Tho of course, the real benefit - using spells to SA from anywhere - is fully functional already without Divine Power.

[aeauseth]

Use a metamagic rod to Extend your persisted spells.

[Keld Denar]

Do note that you can only use one [Divine] feat at a time, so no combining DMM: Persist with DMM: Extend or Divine Spell Powah. This is a commonly overlooked fact. Its in the general rules for Divine feats at the start of the sub-chapter in CWarrior and CDivine.

[Tyndmyr]

This means you don't need to choose behind Arrow Mind, Sniper's Shot, Guided Shot, Chain of Eyes, Golemstrike, Vinestrike, Gravestrike and Hunter's Eye but get them all and constantly. Particularly Guided Shot/Sniper's Shot/Hunter's Eye trio is absolutely crucial to efficient Sneak Attacking. It just removes a crapton of problems at once. Then you can Metamagic School Focus yourself Persistent Divine Power through Arcane Disciple and 9th level slot, and finally go to town. Tho of course, the real benefit - using spells to SA from anywhere - is fully functional already without Divine Power.

MM school focus is a MM reducer, so that pretty much invalidates that portion of the argument.

As for having all eight of those buffs available...that's a significant amount of spell slots. You simply won't have that many spell slots available for a while, especially considering your caster level lags behind that of a straight caster.

As for the buffs, ghoststrike is a +1 equivalent to gravestrike, that is always on(MiC). See also, wand sockets, wand bracer or rod of many wands as ways to very inexpensively make spells available. Plus, there are weapon crystal options. You can pick these up at a much lower cost, and thus, level than you can a serious amount of eighth level spells per day.

Plus, the levels of wizard reduce sneak attack die. Sure, you get it more often, but you get less of it.

[Eldariel]

MM school focus is a MM reducer, so that pretty much invalidates that portion of the argument.

As for having all eight of those buffs available...that's a significant amount of spell slots. You simply won't have that many spell slots available for a while, especially considering your caster level lags behind that of a straight caster.

As for the buffs, ghoststrike is a +1 equivalent to gravestrike, that is always on(MiC). See also, wand sockets, wand bracer or rod of many wands as ways to very inexpensively make spells available. Plus, there are weapon crystal options. You can pick these up at a much lower cost, and thus, level than you can a serious amount of eighth level spells per day.

Plus, the levels of wizard reduce sneak attack die. Sure, you get it more often, but you get less of it.

...Wizard/Unseen Seer gets more SA than just about anyone thanks to Hunter's Eye + Divination Spell Power. And you can get more worthwhile weapon enhancements than Ghoststrike when you have access to the spell. Though really, you won't actually be persisting Gravestrike-line since you don't need to ('cause you can cast them as necessary), but being able to apply SA from any range regardless of concealment and having like 22d6 SA all day and some "auxillary vision locations" and no AoOs or such for firing makes you incomparable to most sneak attackers.

Compared to casting said spells...well, let's just say you don't have the actions. And if you wanna actually make physical attacks and don't want a Reducer, just quicken Divine Power; same difference and if you have Rod you can just use 4th level slots for it.


Wand Bracers, Chambers & al. don't grant extra actions and are thus quite trivial here; you have that one swift action followed by the full-round. And your caster level is the same as that of an equivalent level Wizard; you only miss out on the spell slots which are that of a Wizard one level lower.

But on 16 you should have high enough Int to get the bonus 8th level slot, and specialization grants you at least one more so you should still have plenty, especially since most of the spells you Persist are Wizard 1s and thus Persistent in level 7 slots.

[Bayar]

Do note that you can only use one [Divine] feat at a time, so no combining DMM: Persist with DMM: Extend or Divine Spell Powah. This is a commonly overlooked fact. Its in the general rules for Divine feats at the start of the sub-chapter in CWarrior and CDivine.

You do realise that an optimiser would not bother to burn a feat for DMM Extend when he already got DMM Persist, right ? They would most likely just use a spell slot 1 level higher than the actual spell.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I'm very aware. Just wanted to make that comment to anyone who ISN'T aware. Most people miss that section. Not everyone, but enough to warrent a comment.

And combining DMM:Persist with Divine Spell Power would be a strong option, if you could do it, since the higher CL often gets you better goodies and makes your persistant spells harder to dispel. Alas, you can't do that.