SR: worth it?

[WarKitty]

Is it worth getting spell resistance added to armor? Does it actually really block any spells, or is it too low-level by the time it's affordable?

[Yora]

Spell Resistance is great, the only problem with it is that it's quite expensive.
+1 armor with SR 13 costs 9,000 gp. When you're up against 8th level spellcasters, you've a 25% of any spell being resisted. That's not bad.
But once your character level comes close to the same value as your SR, it's becoming more and more less useful as enemy casters will also increase in level. Once you've reached 10th level or so, you can throw your SR 13 armor away, as it won't provide any real protection against spells.

[Furnok]

Its not worth adding to your armor, you would be better off getting cloak of displacement, ring of evasion, or ring of blinking.

[WarKitty]

Its not worth adding to your armor, you would be better off getting cloak of displacement, ring of evasion, or ring of blinking.

Cloak of displacement might be cool. Not so much on the rings (divine caster with lousy reflexes).

Spell Resistance is great, the only problem with it is that it's quite expensive.
+1 armor with SR 13 costs 9,000 gp. When you're up against 8th level spellcasters, you've a 25% of any spell being resisted. That's not bad.
But once your character level comes close to the same value as your SR, it's becoming more and more less useful as enemy casters will also increase in level. Once you've reached 10th level or so, you can throw your SR 13 armor away, as it won't provide any real protection against spells.

Yeah that's the issue, is it worth the gold at mid-levels.

[Telonius]

It's only worth it if your DM uses a common houserule: SR does not affect beneficial spells. During combat, you really, really don't want to be spending an extra standard action to make sure your Cleric can give you a buff spell. If that rule isn't there, I consider SR to be on the Cursed Item list.

[WarKitty]

It's only worth it if your DM uses a common houserule: SR does not affect beneficial spells. During combat, you really, really don't want to be spending an extra standard action to make sure your Cleric can give you a buff spell. If that rule isn't there, I consider SR to be on the Cursed Item list.

Probably not a huge deal here, I *am* the party buffer (druid, PF so wild shape isn't quite as good).

[Psyx]

I used to think that SR was good; right until the first time I was playing a PC who was knocked to negatives and then the healing 'bounced' and killed the character. The fact that SR works against ALL spells and that it takes an entire standard action to raise or lower makes it utter junk of the highest order to my mind.

[ericgrau]

No, it's not worth the cost on armor. For that matter a cloak of displacement is also way overpriced for a piddly bonus. I don't know why people keep posting it.

Getting SR from a race or class may be better. In spite of the occasional drawback, it is in fact very powerful. For example the above requires low levels to even reach the negatives without dying and failure(s) to stabilize and failed heal check(s). Heck, even the roll vs. SR is 50:50. Otherwise load up on potions or be a class with healing. The benefit of having half of hostile spells bounce off you is easily worth it.

[WarKitty]

It's not worth the cost on armor. Getting it from a race or class may be better. In spite of the occasional drawback, it is in fact very powerful. For example the above requires low levels to even reach the negatives without dying and failure(s) to stabilize and failed heal check(s). Heck, even the roll vs. SR is 50:50. Otherwise load up on potions or be a class with healing. The benefit of having half of hostile spells bounce off you is easily worth it.

Race and class are already set, unfortunately. The main problem isn't really dying, it's having to make concentration rolls all the time due to hostile spells (PF, so there is no concentration skill to pump).

[Marnath]

I used to think that SR was good; right until the first time I was playing a PC who was knocked to negatives and then the healing 'bounced' and killed the character. The fact that SR works against ALL spells and that it takes an entire standard action to raise or lower makes it utter junk of the highest order to my mind.

Lol, wut? Healing spells are Harmless, SR doesn't apply unless you're undead.

[ericgrau]

Race and class are already set, unfortunately. The main problem isn't really dying, it's having to make concentration rolls all the time due to hostile spells (PF, so there is no concentration skill to pump).

Not even combat casting? That's PF for you.

For touch AC try ring of protection, dusty rose prism ioun stone, finding cover like an ally, pillar, corner, etc. (+4). At very high levels (15+?) you can switch to a cloak of minor displacement, but 20% will only do so much. If it's an area spell you can try a cloak of resistance to boost your saves. Not much else out there for resisting spells. If it's always the same energy type you can try resist energy or protection from energy.

Lol, wut? Healing spells are Harmless, SR doesn't apply unless you're undead.

Unfortunately it still does. Unless the healing comes from a potion or yourself.

[Douglas]

Lol, wut? Healing spells are Harmless, SR doesn't apply unless you're undead.

The terms "object" and "harmless" mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless.

[WarKitty]

Not even combat casting? That's PF for you.

Unfortunately combat casting got nerfed as well. It now only applies to casting on the defensive or while grappled. There's really no good way that I've found to boost concentration aside from boosting your casting stat (which is already a +6 at level 3).

[Marnath]

The terms "object" and "harmless" mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless.

You're reading the wrong section.

From the SRD:

Spoiler

Show

When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school:

Abjuration
The target creature must be harmed, changed, or restricted in some manner for spell resistance to apply. Perception changes aren’t subject to spell resistance.

Abjurations that block or negate attacks are not subject to an attacker’s spell resistance—it is the protected creature that is affected by the spell (becoming immune or resistant to the attack).

Conjuration
These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

Divination
These spells do not affect creatures directly and are not subject to spell resistance, even though what they reveal about a creature might be very damaging.

Enchantment
Since enchantment spells affect creatures’ minds, they are typically subject to spell resistance.

Evocation
If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.

Illusion
These spells are almost never subject to spell resistance. Illusions that entail a direct attack are exceptions.

Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.

Transmutation
These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful), such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used. Spell resistance works against magic stone only if the creature with spell resistance is holding the stones when the cleric casts magic stone on them.

[Douglas]

You're reading the wrong section.

From the SRD:

Spoiler

Show

When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school:

Abjuration
The target creature must be harmed, changed, or restricted in some manner for spell resistance to apply. Perception changes aren’t subject to spell resistance.

Abjurations that block or negate attacks are not subject to an attacker’s spell resistance—it is the protected creature that is affected by the spell (becoming immune or resistant to the attack).

Conjuration
These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

Divination
These spells do not affect creatures directly and are not subject to spell resistance, even though what they reveal about a creature might be very damaging.

Enchantment
Since enchantment spells affect creatures’ minds, they are typically subject to spell resistance.

Evocation
If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.

Illusion
These spells are almost never subject to spell resistance. Illusions that entail a direct attack are exceptions.

Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.

Transmutation
These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful), such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used. Spell resistance works against magic stone only if the creature with spell resistance is holding the stones when the cleric casts magic stone on them.

Please point out which part of what you quoted deals with "harmless" spells and whether SR applies for them.

Edit: Ok, you bolded a few sections while I was reading. The first section you bolded is specific to Abjuration. The second includes the word "usually". In any case, the entire section is general guidelines only, and does nothing more than note trends and reasoning for why the SR entries on various spells are what they are.

If you look further up, you will note that the entire section you picked out is under the heading of 'effect' spells, and is there to help judge whether such a spell is direct (SR applied) or indirect (SR doesn't) when that detail is not already clear. For premade published spells, this detail is already clarified for you by the "SR: Yes/No" line in the spell's specific entry. This section is primarily of use for homebrewing spells and explaining why certain spells allow SR and others do not.

[Marnath]

Please point out which part of what you quoted deals with "harmless" spells and whether SR applies for them.

Edit: Ok, you bolded a few sections while I was reading. The first section you bolded is specific to Abjuration. The second includes the word "usually". In any case, the entire section is general guidelines only, and does nothing more than note trends and reasoning for why the SR entries on various spells are what they are.

the point is that buffs and healing aren't something you'd have to lower SR for. What i linked is no more general than the link above mine. There's evidence for both ways, i choose the Rai that won't make things unecessarily hard for my players that have SR.

[Snake-Aes]

the point is that buffs and healing aren't something you'd have to lower SR for. What i linked is no more general than the link above mine. There's evidence for both ways, i choose the Rai that won't make things unecessarily hard for my players that have SR.

Why? As the bolded bit in abjuration says, "they have to change you to be subject to SR", which buffs and healing do.

[Douglas]

the point is that buffs and healing aren't something you'd have to lower SR for. What i linked is no more general than the link above mine. There's evidence for both ways, i choose the Rai that won't make things unecessarily hard for my players that have SR.

If you look further up, you will note that the entire section you picked out is under the heading of 'effect' spells, and is there to help judge whether such a spell is direct (SR applied) or indirect (SR doesn't) when that detail is not already clear. For premade published spells, this detail is already clarified for you by the "SR: Yes/No" line in the spell's specific entry. This section is primarily of use for homebrewing spells and explaining why certain spells allow SR and others do not.

"Harmless" and "buffs and healing" are pretty damn close to exactly equivalent. Now, please explain how your interpretation of RAI is consistent with that equivalency and the rule I linked to.

Allow me to bold a few things myself:

You're reading the wrong section.

From the SRD:

Spoiler

Show

When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school:

Abjuration
The target creature must be harmed, changed, or restricted in some manner for spell resistance to apply. Perception changes aren’t subject to spell resistance.

Abjurations that block or negate attacks are not subject to an attacker’s spell resistance—it is the protected creature that is affected by the spell (becoming immune or resistant to the attack).

Conjuration
These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

Divination
These spells do not affect creatures directly and are not subject to spell resistance, even though what they reveal about a creature might be very damaging.

Enchantment
Since enchantment spells affect creatures’ minds, they are typically subject to spell resistance.

Evocation
If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.

Illusion
These spells are almost never subject to spell resistance. Illusions that entail a direct attack are exceptions.

Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.

Transmutation
These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful), such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used. Spell resistance works against magic stone only if the creature with spell resistance is holding the stones when the cleric casts magic stone on them.

[Marnath]

The description of harmless is that most harmless spells are beneficial not harmful, but you can get a saving throw if you want to. I don't see how that shouldn't apply to SR. But i can see this becoming another debate like the acid and sonic vs. hardness thing, so whatever. I'm done beating the horse.

[Douglas]

The description of harmless is that most harmless spells are beneficial not harmful, but you can get a saving throw if you want to. I don't see how that shouldn't apply to SR. But i can see this becoming another debate like the acid and sonic vs. hardness thing, so whatever. I'm done beating the horse.

That doesn't apply to SR because the "Harmless" entry under SR quite explicitly states that you have to spend a standard action lowering your SR in order to gain the spell's effect without a roll.

[Telonius]

The description of harmless is that most harmless spells are beneficial not harmful, but you can get a saving throw if you want to. I don't see how that shouldn't apply to SR. But i can see this becoming another debate like the acid and sonic vs. hardness thing, so whatever. I'm done beating the horse.

Except that section is under the "Saving Throws" section, not the "Spell Resistance" section. The "Spell Resistance" section specifically contradicts it, saying that it takes a standard action to willingly lower SR.

Anyway, I think that everybody can agree that if this particular ruling is in effect, SR items become absolute rubbish, not worth the GP.

[Snake-Aes]

The description of harmless is that most harmless spells are beneficial not harmful, but you can get a saving throw if you want to. I don't see how that shouldn't apply to SR. But i can see this becoming another debate like the acid and sonic vs. hardness thing, so whatever. I'm done beating the horse.

Spell Resistance as in the Magic Overview

The terms "object" and "harmless" mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above.

[nyjastul69]

the point is that buffs and healing aren't something you'd have to lower SR for. What i linked is no more general than the link above mine. There's evidence for both ways, i choose the Rai that won't make things unecessarily hard for my players that have SR.

The Cure line of spells state very specifically that SR applies. The text for Conjuration in your spoiler also supports this, especially the part you bolded. Cure spells conjure energy that affect the target creature. I can't see any ambiguity here.

[Marnath]

The Cure line of spells state very specifically that SR applies. The text for Conjuration in your spoiler also supports this, especially the part you bolded. Cure spells conjure energy that affect the target creature. I can't see any ambiguity here.

the cure line says SR applies to undead targets.

[ericgrau]

The terms "object" and "harmless" mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above.

Sorry, but SR still applies.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Most groups I know houserule that you can voluntarily lower spell resistance to accept a beneficial spell as easily as you voluntarily fail a saving throw. [ie no action taken].

[Person_Man]

There are only a few efficient methods of getting SR.

• Spell Resistance spell (Cleric 5): SR 12 + caster level.
• Power Resistance power (Psion 5) PR 12 + manifest level. If you use the default Transparency rules, Spell Resistance applies to psionic powers, and Power Resistance applies to spells.
• Zceryll vestige (Binder): Grants the Psuedonatural template, which grants SR 2*HD (Max 25). Also grants unlimited Summoning, and all of your summons are psuedonatural, making it the most powerful vestige available. Online.
• Special Mount/Familiar: Each gains SR when you gain enough levels in the class that grants them.
• Spellward Shirt (Incarnate) soulmeld: SR 5 + (4*essentia invested). Essentia capacity is very tricky. Bottom line is you get SR 5 to 37, depending on how many resources you spend on it. You also have an advantage in that Essentia can be reallocated as a Swift Action, so it's easier to lower your magic defense if you need friendly healing in combat. But as an Incarante, that should almost never happen. Magic of Incarnum
• Dread Carapace (Totemist) soulmeld: SR 5 + (4*essentia invested) when bound to Heart Chakra (17th level). Magic of Incarnum.
• Daazzix's Vest: +5 to existing SR. 25,000 gp. DMG2.
• Slave to Evil feat: Gives you evil aura. As you gain hit dice, benefits improve. Stronger aura can improve Spell Resistance against Divine spells by 5, and can prevent Divine spell casting. Requires Chosen of Evil feat. Elder Evils pg 14.
• Boost Spell Resistance feat: +2 to existing SR. Book of Vile Darkness.
• Sanctified Mind Prestige Class: An easy entry PrC with good abilities (5/6 divine spell or manifest progression) and Power Resistance based on your character level. Lords of Madness.
• Voidmind template: SR 10 + HD. +1 LA. MMIII.

I'm sure there are a few races and template's I've missed. But you will notice that getting SR through armor is not on my list, as it's just not worth the investment.

[Marnath]

Drow and Half-fiends also get SR.

[WarKitty]

There are only a few efficient methods of getting SR.

• Spell Resistance spell (Cleric 5): SR 12 + caster level.
• Power Resistance power (Psion 5) PR 12 + manifest level. If you use the default Transparency rules, Spell Resistance applies to psionic powers, and Power Resistance applies to spells.
• Zceryll vestige (Binder): Grants the Psuedonatural template, which grants SR 2*HD (Max 25). Also grants unlimited Summoning, and all of your summons are psuedonatural, making it the most powerful vestige available. Online.
• Special Mount/Familiar: Each gains SR when you gain enough levels in the class that grants them.
• Spellward Shirt (Incarnate) soulmeld: SR 5 + (4*essentia invested). Essentia capacity is very tricky. Bottom line is you get SR 5 to 37, depending on how many resources you spend on it. You also have an advantage in that Essentia can be reallocated as a Swift Action, so it's easier to lower your magic defense if you need friendly healing in combat. But as an Incarante, that should almost never happen. Magic of Incarnum
• Dread Carapace (Totemist) soulmeld: SR 5 + (4*essentia invested) when bound to Heart Chakra (17th level). Magic of Incarnum.
• Daazzix's Vest: +5 to existing SR. 25,000 gp. DMG2.
• Slave to Evil feat: Gives you evil aura. As you gain hit dice, benefits improve. Stronger aura can improve Spell Resistance against Divine spells by 5, and can prevent Divine spell casting. Requires Chosen of Evil feat. Elder Evils pg 14.
• Boost Spell Resistance feat: +2 to existing SR. Book of Vile Darkness.
• Sanctified Mind Prestige Class: An easy entry PrC with good abilities (5/6 divine spell or manifest progression) and Power Resistance based on your character level. Lords of Madness.
• Voidmind template: SR 10 + HD. +1 LA. MMIII.

I'm sure there are a few races and template's I've missed. But you will notice that getting SR through armor is not on my list, as it's just not worth the investment.

Unfortunately race and class are already locked, it's a no-evil campaign, and psionics doesn't exist.

[Boci]

Drow and Half-fiends also get SR.

I don't think Person_Man ranks either as efficient.