Skill Based Casting (3.5, PEACH)

[whoiam]

Okay, it's a simple enough mechanic.

Every caster has a statistic called 'Magic Fatigue'. Every spell they cast adds spell level * x points of magic fatigue at the start of casting, and at the end of casting (as the spell activates) the caster makes a concentration skill check. If the result of the check equals or betters the caster's current magic fatigue score, the spell activates successfully. Otherwise the spell is wasted.

Casters recover from Magic Fatigue at a rate determined by their class, and x (the spell level multiplier for casting costs) is also class based.

So, assuming I've managed to make that concept intelligible, here are the missing values you'd need to actually use this system:
{table=head]Class|Fatigue Points per Spell Level
1/3rd Caster Class (any casting class that tops out at 3rd or 4th level spells)|8
2/3rds Caster Class (any casting class that tops out around 6th level spells)|6
Full Caster Classes (any casting class that reaches 9th level spells)|4
Spontaneous Full Casters (Sorcerers, Wilders and Favoured Souls)|3
[/table]

Wizards, Psions and Clerics only pay 3 points per spell level when casting domain spells (Clerics) or spells from their favoured school (Wizards) or discipline (Psions).

Every caster recovers 1 point of magical fatigue per 3 caster levels (round up) per round.

The Metamagic spell slot increases count for the purposes of determining the fatigue cost of any given spell.

Psionics cast by this method are automatically augmented to the highest level typically possible for a manifester of the caster's manifester level.

I think the results of this system will be that a caster is never actually in danger of running completely out of spells: But the cool-down periods between heavy bursts of spellcasting will keep them from simply producing a never-ending stream of their highest level spells.

Edit 1: Ongoing spells
A Caster does not begin recovering the magical fatigue points from a spell until that spell has ended.

[Milskidasith]

Skill based casting will never be balanced.

This just lets people freely cast spells all day as long as they have an item of +concentration.

This also has the problem in letting persisted/extended buffs be used endlessly, along with endless planar binding, gating, wishing for inherent bonuses, etc.

In short: This is either a massive buff to casters (if you don't abuse items that increase skills) or an incredibly huge buff to spellcasters (if you do).

Giving a reasonable assumption of a +60 concentration modifier and a caster level of 21, you can three ninth level spells in a row. If the battle isn't over by then, then... I dunno.

If you have a +70, you can reasonably cast four spells in a row with an OK roll.

[whoiam]

Okay, take me through this: What build would a spellcaster have to follow to get a +70 concentration? I'm not a specialist character optimiser, so...

The highest boosts I could see were +10 competency bonuses which, as far as I can remember, do not stack - leaving you with a 20th level spellcaster with an effective 33 + CON ranks in concentration.

Still, I take your point about persisted/extended buffs, and will be adding a reply to that shortly.

[Milskidasith]

Okay, take me through this: What build would a spellcaster have to follow to get a +70 concentration? I'm not a specialist character optimiser, so...

The highest boosts I could see were +10 competency bonuses which, as far as I can remember, do not stack - leaving you with a 20th level spellcaster with an effective 33 + CON ranks in concentration.

Still, I take your point about persisted/extended buffs, and will be adding a reply to that shortly.

+30 item.

23 ranks.

+7 con mod.

That's +60, and pretty trivial stuff. The rest would be feats, a higher con mod, or buffs for untyped skill bonuses (Ioun Stone, that hat that gives a +2 morale bonus to everything from Stormwrack, etc.)

70 requires a bit of optimization, but +60 is completely trivial.

[whoiam]

So where do you find this +30 Concentration item? That's the bit I'm not sure about. I've never run across one - possibly because I don't play at that high a level too often.

Edit: Anyway, the point it's going to eventually be balanced to is this: A 20th level caster should be able to fire off 2 of their highest level spells (or 3 if they were spontaneous casters or using specialist or domain spells) without any trouble, but casting a 3rd (or 4th) should be the province of the very lucky.

[Milskidasith]

So where do you find this +30 Concentration item? That's the bit I'm not sure about. I've never run across one - possibly because I don't play at that high a level too often.

Edit: Anyway, the point it's going to eventually be balanced to is this: A 20th level caster should be able to fire off 2 of their highest level spells (or 3 if they were spontaneous casters or using specialist or domain spells) without any trouble, but casting a 3rd (or 4th) should be the province of the very lucky.

+30 item is in the SRD; skill items are pretty clearly priced.

Anyway, the thing is, being able to cast tons of ninths every encounter (if it takes more than three, you're probably doing it wrong), along with having unlimited pregame buffing, just makes it worse than the normal system. Not only that, this offers no benefit over the regular system, besides making a skill tax (that already exists, really) on concentration.

[whoiam]

Added to the OP:
Edit 1: Ongoing spells
A Caster does not begin recovering the magical fatigue points from a spell until that spell has ended.

So, no unlimited persisted buffs. They can still do permanent buffs if they're happy to pay the XP cost every time someone comes up with a dispel.

From the point of view of someone playing a full caster, this isn't supposed to offer much in a single battle. If your DM likes throwing multiple battles at you a day and interrupting your sleep and preparation times to keep the casters from dominating the party (as several of mine do), then this would allow a caster to be consistantly useful rather than brilliant and useless by turn. But mainly it's meant to reduce the speed at which a caster can rattle off their strongest powers. So, yeah, the numbers aren't there yet. Back in a bit.

[Milskidasith]

Added to the OP:
Edit 1: Ongoing spells
A Caster does not begin recovering the magical fatigue points from a spell until that spell has ended.

So, no unlimited persisted buffs. They can still do permanent buffs if they're happy to pay the XP cost every time someone comes up with a dispel.

From the point of view of someone playing a full caster, this isn't supposed to offer much in a single battle. If your DM likes throwing multiple battles at you a day and interrupting your sleep and preparation times to keep the casters from dominating the party (as several of mine do), then this would allow a caster to be consistantly useful rather than brilliant and useless by turn. But mainly it's meant to reduce the speed at which a caster can rattle off their strongest powers. So, yeah, the numbers aren't there yet. Back in a bit.

Now you've made buffing completely useless. See the problems with this kind of thing?

This has been proposed multiple times before. Spell slots or spell points are the best way to actually manage to keep buffs viable without making them either useless or free. Your system has the same flaws as every other free spell recovery system; it varies between "buffs are worthless, wizards just go nuke somebody" or "buffs are amazing, wizards nuke people while everybody else is an invincible superfighter."

[whoiam]

Without altering the costs from the OP, the current state of play is this:

A 20th level Sorcerer who got their Concentration skill to 70 can do the following:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|30
2|~|15
3|45|10
4|18|8
5|11/12|6
6|8/9|5
7|6/7|5
8|5/6|4
9|4/5|4
[/table]

For a non-specialist full caster, the table would be:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|23
2|90|11
3|18|8
4|10|6
5|6/7|5
6|5/6|4
7|4/5|4
8|3/4|3
9|3/4|3
[/table]


So a caster can keep a handful of high-level (or many low-level) buffs up or ripple off high-level spells at their discretion, or seek a middle ground between the two.

That they cannot do both is not something I am going to lose sleep over. If your response to 'blast or buff' is always 'blast', then I would say that's more to do with the relative worth of the spells involved.

[Milskidasith]

Without altering the costs from the OP, the current state of play is this:

A 20th level Sorcerer who got their Concentration skill to 70 can do the following:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|30
2|~|15
3|45|10
4|18|8
5|11/12|6
6|8/9|5
7|6/7|5
8|5/6|4
9|4/5|4
[/table]

For a non-specialist full caster, the table would be:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|23
2|90|11
3|18|8
4|10|6
5|6/7|5
6|5/6|4
7|4/5|4
8|3/4|3
9|3/4|3
[/table]


So a caster can keep a handful of high-level (or many low-level) buffs up or ripple off high-level spells at their discretion, or seek a middle ground between the two.

That they cannot do both is not something I am going to lose sleep over. If your response to 'blast or buff' is always 'blast', then I would say that's more to do with the relative worth of the spells involved.

The fact is that you need a lot of buffs to keep things relevant. You can't get nearly enough buffs with the way this works, without sacrificing most of your casting. Not only that, but many spells themselves have decent durations preventing you from ever recovering if you use them.

It clearly favors blasting over being a team player and buffing your allies by a huge margin.

[whoiam]

Oh, really? How many buffs would you say, then: half a dozen per party member, all individually cast, average level 5th?

Vague statements aren't much help here.

As to the relative balance, I'm definitely going to increase the cost of casting a little (the average 9th level casting spree is intended to extend to around 3 spells for a sorcerer and 2 for a wizard before having to pause to recover). I may also cheapen lasting spells based on just how many a single caster is normally expected to contribute. But... yeah, it all comes down to numbers.

[RickGriffin]

Okay so, If the wizard's "I win" button is so much of an issue, why do some people still seem determined to let him keep it no matter what?

[whoiam]

Because it's always fun to have a chance to use it?

Wizards, Clerics and Druids do get to the top of most of the 'most powerful class' discussions for a reason, which is the major reason why my intended level for this homebrew is a little below a full caster's current level of power. This probably isn't going to reduce them to a lower tier than, say, the ToB classes, but it'll close the gap a little. Hopefully.

[Lev]

What about Wild Magic, isn't that already a skill based casting class?
On a related note, Bending is an option http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68630

I've been studying bending to adapt to my Flow Dancer class.

[whoiam]

There's a class for that? I knew 3.5 had a wild magic planar trait, but that's not quite the same thing.

And no, I'd rather not use bending. That's more of a 'total magic replacement' project. Which is rather more drastic than this more modest project.

[Lev]

Well it's pretty off the beaten trail as far as supplements go, I don't think it's approved or marketed by WotC.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...which is the major reason why my intended level for this homebrew is a little below a full caster's current level of power. This probably isn't going to reduce them to a lower tier than, say, the ToB classes, but it'll close the gap a little. Hopefully.

3-4 consecutive 9th level spells will end 95% of encounters. With your system, I can do this every encounter, and still be able to use utility spells between encounters with relative impunity. That gives me much, much more power: Wizards and their ilk can go Nova with such destructive power that a recharge time is meaningless, because everything is already dead.

[whoiam]

Okay, let's try this again.

Changes from the OP:
The casting check is now a Caster Level check - 1d20+Caster Level. AFAIK, that one's a lot harder to boost.

Fatigue Point recovery has been reduced to Caster Level/5.

The 'ongoing' costs of maintaining active spells is now half the fatigue points they cost to cast.

A 20th level Sorcerer/Favoured Soul/Wilder can do the following:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|26
2|18|13
3|7|8
4|4|6
5|3|5
6|2|4
7|2|3
8|1|3
9|1|2
[/table]
A 20th level Wizard can do the following:
{table=head]Spell Level|Consecutive Casts (1/round)|Maintained
1|~|20
2|9|10
3|4|6
4|3|5
5|2|4
6|1|3
7|1|2
8|1|2
9|1|2
[/table]

So, too low, too high, or just right?

[Lev]

What I'd suggest is using http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/ to fiddle with spell progression lists and modify it so a class has a lower spell progression than it had originally, then have them make a will save every time they "overcast" which means using a spell level as a slot higher than itself, you can stack overcasting for a higher DC save and a higher price... imagine a concentrated level 9 spell going off in your hands where you normally could only control the forces of a level 5 spell.