Question of etics and being realistic

[Balor01]

Say there is a temple of Pelor in this city, inhabited by a few clerics of Pelor and a few paladins. One day, a wizard drops by, saying he is the representative of merchants guild, dealing in black onyx (major component for raising the undead) and slave trade and his guild wants to sell this stuff in the city. Paladins oppose such ideas of course, but batman teaches them a lesson, leaving a charred pit, where temple was and a bunch of corpses. Then the merchants drop in.
Now, mechanics-wise paladins are lvl 6-12, while batman is lvl 20. No sane person would oppose him, but there is still a question of being a paladin of LG allignment.

So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders )

[hamishspence]

Find a bigger batman.

Possibly this may require doing large favours- fighting something that is highly resistant to magic, but less resistant to melee, for him, so he's willing to help the paladins.

[cheezewizz2000]

Part of being a paladin is knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. If he knows of some method to stop the Wizard that doesn't involve a toe-to-toe straight-up fight that he cannot win, then he should dedicate his life to building a party of like-minded individuals of dissparate, but complimentary, talents to hunt down said MacGuffin. If he doesn't know of such a thing, but does know of someone who might, see above. He he doesn't know of such a thing and doesn't know of someone who does, then he should see my first suggestion, but look for a guy in the know.

If. IF he knows for sure that he is the ONLY thing standing between the Wizard and the safety of the world, then and ONLY then, should he stand resolute and defend the safety of the people with his last breath. If there is a glimmer of hope that he can do it without dying horribly then he should persue those methods. If the bastions of good did nothing but face insurmountable odds with no hope of success, there would be no bastions of good left.

[Rokurai]

Get an epic campaign quest chain to find the Annulus artifact that creates a huge anti-magic field(for psionics as well) then at the end of the artifact retrieval, use it, and skewer the batman with your sword while he tries to escape. The problem here is that since the batman is, at the moment, powerless, you would have to show him mercy...

[hamishspence]

If you've managed to arrange for him to be tried, and sentenced, by a legitimate authority, in his absence, and been designated as executioner- it is possible to kill him without it being an evil act- since execution is not in itself evil.

Killing a helpless enemy without it being a legitimate execution, is iffy though.

[Origomar]

Get an epic campaign quest chain to find the Annulus artifact that creates a huge anti-magic field(for psionics as well) then at the end of the artifact retrieval, use it, and skewer the batman with your sword while he tries to escape. The problem here is that since the batman is, at the moment, powerless, you would have to show him mercy...

see thats why you need a party rogue.

[Balor01]

@Rokurai
Contingency: when in AMF, teleport to my mansion. Then return in invisible dragon form (polymorph) and bombard targets with small houses.

Another batman may actually be the solution.

[Kaww]

LG is not lawful stupid. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single LG char with more than 2HD.

[Psyx]

That's not 'trading' that's blackmail - trade with us or we destroy you.
The temple needs to buy a little time and marshal some frightening resources. 'Message' spells to the high temple (you can bet that they have a few epic clerics kicking around) and all those political contacts that they've made over the years.

So what does the local government have to say about this? [L stands for 'lawful'].

A town/nation that has a church of a good god in their kingdom is basically being held for ransom. A mage is threatening to level parts of the city. Can you say 'collateral damage?' - People are going to get hurt. It starts with the church (who are known to be good and to be a bastion of opposition against evil), but where does it stop? The palace itself? The population aren't going to like it either, because they KNOW that those paladins help protect them, and those priests possibly married them or cured their cousin of the plague last year.

Edicts against the criminal are likely to be raised. For certain if the paladins petition the ruler (which they will, because resorting to the law should be at the top of their 'to do' list), and if the ruler isn't a cabbage. And then what does batman do?

Basically, batman is making an enemy of an entire country here. Batman clearly isn't very clever. Batman's 'evil plan' is stupid-evil, unless he is actually willing to go to war over this.

And he's already tipped his hand: He's got onyx and slaves, and an organisation behind him. Dismantle that organisation. Remove the slave supply.

It doesn't have to be fair play, either. The paladins might do a lot of political work in rousing the population and petitioning nobility to raise resistance, but you can bet that the local thieves guild don't like people strong-arming in on their business, and lording it up. They'll happily supply information via indirect means to the nobility and paladins, and probably won't be adverse to murdering a few of the mage's lackies, either.
This 'merchant's guild' - is it the legitimate merchant's guild of the town? If not, then the real merchants are going to support the paladins, and have a lot of cash to spend on the issue. If it ism then it can kiss goodbye to it's official status. The ruler would be only too happy to tear it down and put something else in place, and you can bet a lot of other people are going to support that. I foresee warehouses getting burned down in the night.

This is clearly a case of a mage who somehow got to level 20 by only solving the problem right in front of him with ire and brimstone, rather than by considering the wider picture. Welcome to the big world! Welcome to waking up in your tower to find a ring of trebuchets and 20th level clerics from the high-temple of Pelor setting siege(with an epic dimension lock on your tower, of course). welcome to bringing the wrath of an entire kingdom and church down on you. Here's your 4d6.

[Peregrine]

So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders )

If you mean other paladins aligned with the destroyed temple, then yeah, everyone's got it right: begin a quest to take out the wizard by whatever means will work (including finding another Batman). And may I reiterate my belief that a paladin is perfectly justified in killing an enemy of this sort, even if he is temporarily made helpless by anti-magic, or hold person, or whatever?

If you mean the paladins in the temple, they probably did the right thing, opposing him and getting fried. Any who weren't killed before realising the danger would probably attempt to organise an orderly retreat, of all temple personnel and any citizens who wished to follow. And then if when the wizard goes to stop them, then they die fighting a rearguard action.

Contingency: when in AMF, teleport to my mansion.

I'm not sure you quite understand how anti-magic works...

[Boci]

I'm not sure you quite understand how anti-magic works...

I'm not sure you understand how a shrunken lead hat works.

[Peregrine]

I'm not sure you understand how a shrunken lead hat works.

I--

Wait. What?

[huttj509]

I--

Wait. What?

Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

If I was running this game, I'd have the paladins and Pelorians go questing for some greater power - either from outside (some nice, high level wizard to help them out) or from within (the greatest CoDzilla Pelorian who ever lived).

Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

*steals*

Though you have to worry about the effects of a ton of lead being briefly supported by your neck...

[Bibliomancer]

*steals*

Though you have to worry about the effects of a ton of lead being briefly supported by your neck...

Technically, you don't, since the switch occurs simultaneously (D&D assumes that an object is entirely in the field or not in it at all) and besides, you could just use a contingent levitate spell on the lead.

[Balor01]

Tnx for al the answers, most of my questions were nicely answered. Just to explain some things: Wizard is a member of extremely powerfull merchant-city which also houses a mageguild, consisting of several dozen high-lvl wizards. Most are N, NE, LE.

As for local government of "Invaded" city, they just rolled over and vent with it, due to all burnt-to-ashes thing. As for what to do: I was thinking the first goal for opposition should be getting some mind blank and nondetection. Then, getting some powerfull clerics and .. well, gods on their side. It is very likely that a few dozens of wizards are ready to band up behind this guy who is "expanding their mercantile interests".

[Peregrine]

Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

Well. Okay then. That one's new to me.

It's also cheese and I'm trying to figure out how to prevent it -- not that I expect my players to try such a thing, but, as a good practice for a DM to be in...

Hmm. It's an emanation, so yeah, the lead cone/hat works. It doesn't need to be lead at all, in fact. Anything that provides you with total cover (i.e. any solid object whatsoever) will work.

Okay, one, I'd say the contingency never triggers. While you're in an antimagic field, it can't work. The moment you block the antimagic field, its triggering condition doesn't apply.

You could set it up so that it triggers the moment you get out of an antimagic field. That'd probably work. But it's more likely to go off unexpectedly.

And if I needed to deny it because of some cheese other than contingency, then: "The outside is in the antimagic field, but the inside is protected by it. The stress of the inside being under shrink item while the outside isn't cracks the object and exposes you to the field." Or better yet, talk it over (read: just say no) with my players beforehand.

[Kurald Galain]

Depends on the kind of paladin.

If you're Miko, you charge the evil bad guy head-first, defeat one of his lackeys, then get thrown in a Forcecage and used for his Xanatos gambit.

If you're Thanh, you set up an elaborate resistance scheme to slowly overthrow the evildoes.

Needless to say the latter is quite a bit more effective.

[Boci]

Well. Okay then. That one's new to me.

It's also cheese and I'm trying to figure out how to prevent it -- not that I expect my players to try such a thing, but, as a good practice for a DM to be in...

Hmm. It's an emanation, so yeah, the lead cone/hat works. It doesn't need to be lead at all, in fact. Anything that provides you with total cover (i.e. any solid object whatsoever) will work.

Okay, one, I'd say the contingency never triggers. While you're in an antimagic field, it can't work. The moment you block the antimagic field, its triggering condition doesn't apply.

You could set it up so that it triggers the moment you get out of an antimagic field. That'd probably work. But it's more likely to go off unexpectedly.

And if I needed to deny it because of some cheese other than contingency, then: "The outside is in the antimagic field, but the inside is protected by it. The stress of the inside being under shrink item while the outside isn't cracks the object and exposes you to the field." Or better yet, talk it over (read: just say no) with my players beforehand.

With the lead hat you do not need contingency. You just cast it on your turn. Its lead because that also has the added bonus of blocking detection spells, so you may as well kill two birds with one stone and carry an oblect that could be used as an improvised protection from certain divinations.
Also for high level wizards there is always invoke magic from LoM. My aparanoid wizard did not ban evocation just for that spell.

[Snake-Aes]

Nothing says lead blocks the field's emanation, though. Shrunk lead hats won't save you from them. Contingency should, though, since being an immediate effect lets it trigger just before the field breaks things down (talk about limit tending to zero here).

[Boci]

Nothing says lead blocks the field's emanation, though.

It does if it provides total cover.

[Snake-Aes]

Then an oversized cloak can beat the antimagic field.

[Stompy]

There are many questions here. The first two I have are: "Why is a level 20 batman doing the merchant's bidding?" and "Why does the temple of Pelor dictate trade in this city?"

but answering the OP question:

So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders )

Honestly, unless he looks like someone supremely powerful, I would attempt to arrest him under Pelor Canon law #2543, no slavery allowed. I'm sorry if this means that the city and I die but I'm acting on the info I had.

If I knew he was Batman, I would surprise-charge-smite-sunder his spellbook. (knowing full well he probably has foresight up) If no spellbook exists, suprise-charge-smite-sunder his extradimensional space.

In both cases, should the worst happen (which it will 175% of the time when dealing with Batman), I no longer play a 6-12th level paladin. Oh darn. We all know from these boards that a paladin can't go 1 week without breaking his code of conduct anyway.

[Boci]

Then an oversized cloak can beat the antimagic field.

Doubt it. Cloaks aren't as solid as metal (albeit one of the softer ones), and when the hat exspands it ceases to be an item of clothing.

[Snake-Aes]

Doubt it. Cloaks aren't as solid as metal (albeit one of the softer ones), and when the hat exspands it ceases to be an item of clothing.

Hardly a problem. Make one of well-prepared rubber and it'll be an insulant just as much as that layer of metal as long as there isn't excessive force applied to it. Kinda like a giant condom. I'm sure someone will find a way to Gate in a horde of angels from within the rubbercloak in case of antimagic fields.

[Boci]

Hardly a problem. Make one of well-prepared rubber and it'll be an insulant just as much as that layer of metal as long as there isn't excessive force applied to it. Kinda like a giant condom. I'm sure someone will find a way to Gate in a horde of angels from within the rubbercloak in case of antimagic fields.

That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

[Snake-Aes]

That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

<shrug> when it comes to that, i give up. There's no point trying to outhink a wizard when people have years of experience worth to build theoretical counters to Everything that Exists and Your Girlfriend Too.

[Stompy]

That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

Definitely. Although I would laugh if you could sneak polymer engineering into a DM's campaign world.

...do these merchants sell these lead hats because I want one now.

[Psyx]

It's also likely that a lot of wizards aren't going to like it. Not only for alignment reasons.

This is going to be public knowledge. And if you - a citizen- find out that wizards can lean on you, threaten you and murder you in broad daylight, what are you going to think of wizards?
You're going to be afraid. But people don't stay afraid and compliant for long.
You and your mates are probably going to lynch the first low-level wizard that you see. Less powerful wizards are not going to like being feared. They aren't going to like people refusing to serve them in the tavern because the tavern owner's daughter died of plague that couldn't be cured because a wizard killed all the healers.


I don't see that the government would in any way roll over. The mage and the guild have just shown that they are willing to harm the city (killing those defenders and all those handy healers), use violence in broad daylight, and utterly defy local authority.

Local authorities don't stay in power by letting it be seen that people can break laws and completely upset the political balance and get away with it. They are dependant on people respecting the law to stay in power. nobody is more interested in social stability than the people who run the system.
They might be acting like it's ok, but the reality of the situation would be that the nobility are desperately trying to figure out a way to deal with this guild before it turns its eyes to the wealth of the nobles.

[Snake-Aes]

Definitely. Although I would laugh if you could sneak polymer engineering into a DM's campaign world.

...do these merchants sell these lead hats because I want one now.

Rubber was known and used since more or less 1500 BC, and its raw material can be found in nature(yay latex).
Fabricate spells, int 20+ and "i'm a goddamn wizard who can freaking ask those slightly less powerful beings(gods) for advice".