Dr Vs Na

[Origomar]

as a general rule of thumb what is beter +1 to natural armor class or 1 DR/-

Edit: i dont have that much experience, i would think that +1 AC is better though.

also does one scale better than the other?

[Morph Bark]

+1 NA provides protection against some attacks. DR 1/- against all.

At least the ones that don't deal energy damage, like from touch spells.

[squishycube]

A lot depends on the attack bonus of the enemy you face. If your enemy must roll a 19 or 20 to hit you, the +1 AC would be better, as now only a 20 will hit you. If your enemy will hit you almost always, the DR would definitely be better.

Now, consider that monsters that must roll high to hit you are probably not that much of a threat to you. You will probably beat them, with or without the AC or DR bonus. Monsters that will hit you most of the time are not so phased by a +1 to AC, so 1 DR is probably better. Although then the DR isn't that significant either...

[Origomar]

so basically they are about the same?(both kinda useful but not really)

[Psyx]

1/- DR every time, I think.


Running out of HP can kill you...

[squishycube]

Well, I'd always choose the armor bonus, but I am biased in that way. I don't really have a good reason for it. In my mind it just feels better not to get hit than to prevent damage done once you are hit.

[Simba]

It really depends on your AC compared to the attackers attack modifiers. If you get hit all the time anyway, +1 to AC will not help you a lot, but DR1/- will reduce damage each time. If your AC is already very high, +1 to AC will prevent even more hits while DR1/- is not worth a lot as you tend not to get hit.

So:
high AC --> take +1 AC
low AC --> take DR

Rule of thumb, of course :)

[Orzel]

NA +1 increases your defenses by "5%"
DR 1/- increases your defense by 1/X, where X is the average damage you are dealt by an attack.

Basically if enemy deals a lot of damage (15+ average), natural armor is better.
If the damage is low, DR 1/- is better.

[squishycube]

Thanks to Orzel for putting my gut instincts into numbers.

A small addition: average damage is not just average when the monster hits, it is average over all attacks.

[Dhavaer]

Thanks to Orzel for putting my gut instincts into numbers.

A small addition: average damage is not just average when the monster hits, it is average over all attacks.

Could you clarify that?

DR is per attack, not per round, so critters that deal a lot of damage through a barrage of attacks get shafted more by DR than ones with one big attack.

[Orzel]

The sum of the damage divided by the number of attacks.

[Boci]

So essentially +1 NA gives you a 5% chance to ignore all damage from an attack (providing its not an only hit on 20 or only miss on 1) were as DR: 1 / - would reduce all attacks damage by 1. So if the average damage is 21 or higher, NA is probably better.

[Snake-Aes]

(people, it's pointless to bring Energy to the discussion.It's AC vs DR, neither of them helps against energy)

It's all circumstantial. If your ac is high enough, more ac won't help. If your DR is high enough, more dr won't help. If you expect Death of a Thousand Cuts, you'll have better chances with DR. If you expect Wave Motion Guns, then you'll likely want AC instead. Either way don't forget concealment (which affects both components equally) too.

[T.G. Oskar]

Expanding on Orzel's thought:

Armor Class (not just natural armor, any bonus to AC) blocks the damage entirely, so it's a 100% damage reduction, but if you get hit you take full damage (so to speak; it depends on your DR and energy resistance, but this is assuming no such thing and the only effect of the attack is damage). Armor Class has greater effect when the attack bonus of the opponent is low. The pros of raising AC is that there are many sources of Armor Class (armor, shield, natural armor, deflection, dodge and Dexterity modifier are the most common, but there are sacred, profane, competence, and even reflex bonuses, not to mention the untyped bonuses and the enhancement bonus to the first three in the first list), and many sources that stack with each other, so the amount of AC is usually high. Cons include: a character that makes incorporeal touch attacks in the Ethereal Plane eats about 80% of your AC, touching eats the largest amount of AC and denying your Dex bonus to AC usually means you become vulnerable to larger amounts of damage.

Damage Reduction takes effect when you take the damage, and what it does is reduce a small amount of damage from the attack; that can't be measured by percentages but rather by integers. Your damage is reduced by X/Y, where X means the amount of damage reduction and Y is the item or effect that bypasses that reduction (unless it's X/-, in which there is virtually no bypass). As mentioned, DR is better when you get hit a lot and get hit for small quantities of damage; usually, DR loses effect when you get damage that, in a rough estimate, takes 10% off your full HP after reduction (reduce that to 5% when you speak of multiple successful attacks). Pros of the damage reduction is that there are several spells that grant a reasonable amount of damage reduction out there, as well as effects. There are several cons, though: none of the DR numbers stack, DR of different sources overlaps, usually it can be bypassed by one effect that's easy to get, and it rarely, if ever, gets higher than 10.

So, really, it depends on what is the reality of your character. Usually, you want a high AC AND reasonable DR to succeed, but if you MUST choose from one of the two, you rather go for the AC than for the DR, unless the net bonus of the AC can be bypassed quite easily (say, a +1 bonus to AC which can be bypassed by, say, Weapon Focus or a single 1st level spell). DR X/- is very rare and a good reason to ignore getting +1 to AC, as well as DR based on metals (adamantine, silver, cold iron). DR based on magic or alignment (mostly DR/evil or DR/good) is too weak, since the large majority of monsters can bypass it rather easily (magic more than others), so a +1 to AC is far better in that occasion.

[Cespenar]

If you're mobile and aren't likely to get full attacked, NA.

If you're a front liner/tank/etc. and often receive full attacks, DR.

Actually, not quite, but never mind. It depends on a lot of things.

[KillianHawkeye]

Given a choice, I'd choose Damage Reduction over Natural Armor because Damage Reduction is harder to get. (You can get a Amulet of Natural Armor for pretty cheap.)

[Morph Bark]

(people, it's pointless to bring Energy to the discussion.It's AC vs DR, neither of them helps against energy)

These spells disagree.

[Snake-Aes]

These spells disagree.

Oh, touch spells. Forgot about those. Indeed, touch-worthy ac applies against them. This gives AC some more weight, I suppose. And it still makes for big messes to decide on either.

[Boci]

Oh, touch spells. Forgot about those. Indeed, touch-worthy ac applies against them. This gives AC some more weight, I suppose. And it still makes for big messes to decide on either.

The opening post does specify natural AC, so you were right to begin with.

[Snake-Aes]

The opening post does specify natural AC, so you were right to begin with.

Mistakenly so, I had all possible types of AC in mind when I wrote most of the stuff.

[Vantharion]

NA +1 increases your defenses by "5%"
DR 1/- increases your defense by 1/X, where X is the average damage you are dealt by an attack.

Basically if enemy deals a lot of damage (15+ average), natural armor is better.
If the damage is low, DR 1/- is better.

Orzel is smart.
DR is generally harder to get and build for.
Orzel's point and Simba's point are accurate
The important thing is multiple sources of damage reduction don't stack, whereas you can have multiple types of armor.
You can have shield armor, enhancement armor, dex armor.
You can have the highest source of DR but its hard to get ridiculous DR stacking.
One thing I've never been clear on is if you have 5 DR/Bludgeoning, and 3 DR/- And you would be hit for 5 damage bludgeoning, do you take 2 damage or do you only have 5 DR/Bludgeoning.

[Vangor]

Will go AC on a strict one to one comparison. Consider most things you worry about striking you won't be terribly affected by 1 DR, but any miss is fantastic.

[Person_Man]

It's a lot cheaper to boost AC, and you can do so via a very wide variety of means. DR is much harder to come by, especially universal DR. So I would go with the DR.

Also, +1 AC does not always raise your defenses by 5%. If an enemy attacks you and he rolls 1d20 + 21, and your AC 18, adding +1 to your AC has no impact on your chance of being hit. Similarly, if your enemy attacks you and he rolls 1d20 + 1 and your AC is 21, adding +1 to your AC has no impact on your chance of being hit. This is not just a theoretical point once you reach higher levels, as mooks will often only have a 1 in 20 chance of hitting an optimized AC, and BBEG will only have a 1 in 20 chance in missing a non-optimized AC.

On the flip side, while DR/Anything can be quite useful at low levels, when 2-4 extra hit points makes a big deal, it tends to be a joke at higher levels.

But really, neither is that big of a deal. It's like asking the difference between a single french fry and a single olive.

[Boci]

It's like asking the difference between a single french fry and a single olive.

Thread derail: Olive is more healthy and actually has a taste. No choice there.

[senrath]

One thing I've never been clear on is if you have 5 DR/Bludgeoning, and 3 DR/- And you would be hit for 5 damage bludgeoning, do you take 2 damage or do you only have 5 DR/Bludgeoning.

You use whichever is higher at the time. In your example, DR 3/- would apply, since the DR 5/Bludgeoning is bypassed. If you were hit with piercing damage, though, only the DR 5/Bludgeoning would apply. I think.

[Morph Bark]

You use whichever is higher at the time. In your example, DR 3/- would apply, since the DR 5/Bludgeoning is bypassed. If you were hit with piercing damage, though, only the DR 5/Bludgeoning would apply. I think.

Huh. Funny, I always thought all forms of DR you have applied, personally.

Thread derail: Olive is more healthy and actually has a taste. No choice there.

You must live in an area where they make bad fries then.

[senrath]

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Yeah, only the best one applies.

[Boci]

You must live in an area where they make bad fries then.

Nah, just ones that do not have a strong enough taste for me to notice something from 1. If I shove several into my mouth I can though.

[ericgrau]

1 HP per hit is nothing. +1 NA is way better, as it is more than 5% of damage. If your opponent only hits on 10 out of 20 die rolls, for example, it's 10% of damage.

And DR only works on physical attacks anyway, so it doesn't have a versatility advantage over natural armor. Touch and area spells deal energy damage which is not affected.

[Keld Denar]

I'm confused ericgrau. How is +1 worth more than 5%? If you are hit on a 3-20, +1 AC is 5%. If you are hit on 19-20, +1 AC is 5%. If you are hit on 10-20, +1 AC is 5%. Its not weighted higher on any part fo the spectrum...

Also, as others have noted, +1 NA doesn't help you against area attacks or touch attacks either (unless you cast Scintilating Scales), so your whole 2nd arguement has no relevance.