Thoughts on Pale Master

[Popertop]

Just discovered this PrC, wondering if anyone else thinks its good.

Pretty nice capstone and some other okay-ish abilities, the only thing that worries me is half-casting progression. Does that make it worthless?

[Kyeudo]

The First Commandment of Optimization is "Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels." Anything that loses more than 2 caster levels is usually crappy and even those that only lose 1 are trouble without a significant class feature to make up for it.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is very nice for a gestalt necromancer where you can make up for the lost casting. Other than that I would point you to the fell animate metamagic feat for free undead creation, as it is likely a better way to animate free undead at lower opertunity cost.

Just fell animate chill touch or whatever that low level spell that lets you deal 1dsometing cold damage as a touch a number of times, then cu-de-gra all fallen foes.

For earlier levels fell animate a acid splash for a cu-de-gra. Nothing like free zombies at level 5.

[Popertop]

I'd say immunity to crits is a pretty significant class feature.

What kind of feats make up for lost caster level?

[Kyeudo]

I'd say immunity to crits is a pretty significant class feature.

Not when it can be duplicated by half a dozen spells. A significant class feature is a class feature that can function as an "I win" button or makes an "I win" button into a "I pwnt you noob" button. Take the Recaster, for example. It loses one caster level, but in exchange you get the ability to play around with the shape of your spells left and right. Also gives you some free metamagic to play with and a couple other class features wizards normally don't get.

What kind of feats make up for lost caster level?

Feats never make up for a lost caster level. A lost caster level is one less Wish per day. A lost feat is a missing +2 bonus to some random skill or check.

[jiriku]

There aren't any feats that are worth a lost caster level. Class features that would justify lost levels might include:

• a 50% miss chance that's on all the time
• a miss chance that works against spells
• permanent reduction of all metamagic spell level adjustments by -1
• ability to apply metamagic to your spells for free several times per day
• 20% or greater increase in your list of spells known
• full base attack, a d6 or d8 hit die, and the ability to cast in medium armor

[Set]

What kind of feats make up for lost caster level?

The one that gives you +4 to your caster level, up to a maximum of your character level. :)

[Philistine]

It is very nice for a gestalt necromancer where you can make up for the lost casting. Other than that I would point you to the fell animate metamagic feat for free undead creation, as it is likely a better way to animate free undead at lower opertunity cost.

Just fell animate chill touch or whatever that low level spell that lets you deal 1dsometing cold damage as a touch a number of times, then cu-de-gra all fallen foes.

For earlier levels fell animate a acid splash for a cu-de-gra. Nothing like free zombies at level 5.

Coup de grace. Please. Coup de grace.

The one that gives you +4 to your caster level, up to a maximum of your character level. :)

... but which doesn't get you additional spells per day or spells known. So not quite as useful.

[Popertop]

Take the Recaster, for example.

My DM would never NEVER allow the recaster.
And he also thinks being immune to critical hits is way too good, to the point that he won't allow Warshaper either.

[The Glyphstone]

Does he also ban Fortification armor?

[Emmerask]

Just discovered this PrC, wondering if anyone else thinks its good.

Pretty nice capstone and some other okay-ish abilities, the only thing that worries me is half-casting progression. Does that make it worthless?

In a tier3 to tier 4 powerlevel campaign/adventure it could be a valid choice.

[TooManyBadgers]

Check out the 3.5 version in Libris Mortis. It's much better balanced with a straight-classed Necromancer:

It grants 9/10 casting progression, ASF reduction, free Animate Dead, some nice defenses and immunities, an undead cohort and a nasty touch attack you'll probably never use.

It's a fantastic prestige class in terms of its design: it's very close to the same power of its base-class alternative, but it has some extra useful and flavorful toys to play with.

It's kind of mediocre as far as CharOp goes, though. It's not like Fatespinner, Paragnostic Apostle, Loremaster or Sacred Exorcist in that it has actual costs in exchange for its benefits.

My one quibble is that the first level of LM Pale Master is absolutely dead -- no casting, no class abilities, bad skills.

Other than that, I think it, alongside the Malconvoker, is the best example of what a casting Prestige class should look like.

[JaronK]

Agreed. It's a balanced and solid PrC. Would I take it? Only if I were playing a Necromancer in a game where I couldn't get enough onyxes and Spell Stitching wasn't allowed. But it's a good PrC.

That means it's not stronger than the base class, just more specialized.

JaronK

[Keld Denar]

As a wizard base, just prep and cast Heart of Air(2nd), Heart of Water(3rd), Heart of Earth(4th), Heart of Fire(5th), and Heart of Heart(CAPTAIN PLANET!). They last hours per level, grant you 25% fortification with 2, 100% fortification with all 4, and you can discharge them to give you a couple of VERY lifesaving features like Freedom of Movement or Stoneskin.

Thats a MUCH better path to 100% fortification than Pale Master. Basically, Pale Master doesn't give you anything that you can't already replicate with spells in a better, more powerful way.

[playswithfire]

I've enjoyed it ever since I made a gestalt BBEG with it; 16th level sorcerer/pale master // battle dancer/crusader. Pale Master's immunities and the 8th level devoted spirit stance made him an interesting fight.

[Kyeudo]

My DM would never NEVER allow the recaster.
And he also thinks being immune to critical hits is way too good, to the point that he won't allow Warshaper either.

Did your DM have a heart attack when he saw the Planar Shepherd?

[Popertop]

Sorry, I didn't know about those spells, what are they from?

[Keld Denar]

Complete Mage, all 4 of them.

There is no Heart of Heart spell...I made that up to complete my Captain Planet joke...

[Urpriest]

Doesn't Pale Master give the otherwise tricky-to-find immunity to subdual damage without being an undead or construct? I seem to recall it being pretty key in immunity to damage builds, along with half-black dragon war troll.