(4e) Sorcerers: is there a reason for NOT using daggers?

[Zombimode]

Sorcerers make use of daggers and staffs as implements.
They are also focused on AoE damage, so any source of bonus damage is worthwhile.
The dual implement caster feat adds the enchantment bonus of the off-hand implement as bonus damage.

Now, the staff is a two handed weapon and thus using it would deny the use of the dual implement caster feat, which leaves me with daggers.
Has the staff any redeming qualities that make up for the loss of damage?
Or is there really no reason from an optimization point of view to use staffs?

Im asking because it would look very silly on my character to frikin' dual wield daggers. My sorcerer wont be one of the "I dont need to study magicz, I just know what to do because I'm (a dragon, a storm, just crazy, etc.)" type. To the contrary: he will be one of the scholary type, a grizzled war wizard veteran. Using anything other than an iconic wizard staff would be a downer, but dual wielding daggers would completely cramping his style.
Normaly I would just go for the style, mechanical benefits to be damned, but considering the game this character is being made for more or less focuses on the combat part with little to no roleplaying there is no excuse for not bringing optimized characters to the table.

[Kylarra]

Unless things have changed, staves are one-handed implements, despite being two-handed weapons. It's worth pointing out that 4e's variance in power levels is fairly shallow, overall, so you can still be decent enough without necessarily taking all the most optimal options.

[hamishspence]

If staffs are one handed implements, and you dual-wield them, will you look like Saruman in the Fellowship of the Ring movie after he grabbed Gandalf's staff?

[Xefas]

If staffs are one handed implements, and you dual-wield them, will you look like Saruman in the Fellowship of the Ring movie after he grabbed Gandalf's staff?

I don't see why not.

Still, even if the staff was a 2-handed implement, if you want to use it, then use it. No reason to sacrifice something you like about your character for a few extra points of damage that aren't going to matter terribly.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, the staff is a two handed weapon and thus using it would deny the use of the dual implement caster feat, which leaves me with daggers.

The staff is a two-handed weapon, but a one-handed implement.

Or is there really no reason from an optimization point of view to use staffs?

There's the Staff of Ruin.

[Zombimode]

Thank you for all the answers.

There's the Staff of Ruin.

Ah, cool :)

[Hal]

One of our players took this feat and used an orb for his off-hand implement (IIRC). Our GM considered it an acceptable solution to place the orb on top of the staff (the player agreed to not use the empty hand in combat).

[Urpriest]

To echo what others above have said, there is very little reason (now that Daggermaster only works for rogue powers) to use a Dagger implement as a Sorceror. A Staff uses the same number of hands and comes in Staff of Ruin (easier than Dagger of Subtlety, and you are almost certainly using one of the other). An optimized Sorceror will dualwield staffs, or have a staff mainhand and a dagger offhand for an interesting offhand property.

[Zombimode]

Dual wielding staffs... *mind boggles*

Ah, well, I will ask my DM if I can have two staff enchantments on one staff. It should be almost identical to wielding to staffs (save for weight, which is handwaved), right?
And since staffs are also double weapons, this might not even be a houserule, right?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Dual wielding staffs... *mind boggles*

Ah, well, I will ask my DM if I can have two staff enchantments on one staff. It should be almost identical to wielding to staffs (save for weight, which is handwaved), right?
And since staffs are also double weapons, this might not even be a houserule, right?

That's not how Double Weapons work in 4e.

Each weapon has a single enchantment that applies to both heads.

[Sir_Elderberry]

A sorcerer with two weapons, taking a potion:
Drop weapon (free)
Draw potion (minor)
Take potion (minor)
Pick up weapon (move) or Blow People Up (no bonus from other staff) (standard)

A sorcerer with one:
Draw potion (minor)
take potion (minor)
BLOW PEOPLE UP (standard)

So I wouldn't allow it.

[Kurald Galain]

That's not how Double Weapons work in 4e.

Correct. Also, the quarterstaff is not in fact a double weapon (unless you spend a feat on staff fighting).

A sorcerer with two weapons, taking a potion:

Sure, but if you have a disembodied hand, battle harness, quick draw feat, bracers of quickness, or are thri-kreen, then it's much faster. Any of that is rather recommended, because swapping items around is very effective in the hands of an arcane caster.

[Urpriest]

With Staff Fighting there are some arguments to the effect that you are now holding an implement in each hand and thus can use Dual Implement Spellcaster,the two just happen to be the same item...it's not something I'd let fly in my games though.

As for potion-drinking, potions are pretty universally weak in 4e. Whetstones are a little more useful, but still, it's not really a problem to have both hands occupied. Rangers do it all the time.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, the dual staff for dual implements costs an extra feat, which I would think balances the cost pretty nicely to be honest, compared to simply buying, stealing or looting a second impliment.

You get more money than feats, after all.

That said though, I think it really is the kind of thing that should be discussed with DM, because of a mixture of possible rules and aesthetic niggles and varying personal tastes.

[tcrudisi]

I'm sensing a lot of hatred towards daggers which is unwarranted.

Staff has the Staff of Ruin -- an absolutely amazing implement.
Daggers have the Totem Dagger which is equal to the SoR if you are a Halfling.

Daggers also have more "good, but not great" powers than Staffs, on the whole. I'd list some, but I'm feeling lazy. Bloodiron is one that comes to mind quickly.

[Kurald Galain]

Daggers have the Totem Dagger which is equal to the SoR if you are a Halfling.

Sure, but it's inferior if you're not a small race.

Daggers also have more "good, but not great" powers than Staffs, on the whole.

I'm not convinced; when I find an item daily that is worth using an item daily slot on, it's almost always an Orb or a Staff. For instance, Staff of the Warmage comes to mind, as well as Hellfire Staff, Staff of Light, and Staff of Wind.

[YPU]

Anybody looked at the DnD insider class act sorcerer of yesterday yet? its dedicated to dagger sorcerers.

[Sir Homeslice]

Anybody looked at the DnD insider class act sorcerer of yesterday yet? its dedicated to dagger sorcerers.

Feats are decent enough I guess, and the only good parts are Ensorcelled Blade (MBA At-Will with White Lotus Riposte-esque effect, except you riposte with Spell Source damage) and Lightning Cuts (Why oh why doesn't it add cha to damage? Also, a crappier low slash on a ranged AoE combatant).

Really, the article is trying to make the Sorcerer some kind of melee combatant, which is what it isn't supposed to be.

[tcrudisi]

Jagged Dagger is, imho, better than all those you just mentioned, allowing the wielder to score a crit on a 19.

Vampiric is great for getting around immunities.
Subtle is good for just increasing your dpr ... especially good for Drow or if you have good teammates.
The Chaos Tooth dagger is also very good for Chaos Sorc's.

To me, I'd much rather have a wonderful property that is always active than a good daily and that's where daggers really outshine staffs.

Don't get me wrong -- I'll take the Staff of Ruin any day. It's by far the best implement in the game. BUT -- if the SoR is not available for whatever reason, my Sorc's will default to daggers next.

[cupkeyk]

Also there is an accurate staff, but no accurate dagger.

[Urpriest]

Also there is an accurate staff, but no accurate dagger.

False. While accurate dagger is not in the PHB3, it was introduced in a Dragon article, along with Lancing Dagger, Resonating Dagger, and I believe one other.

[cupkeyk]

False. While accurate dagger is not in the PHB3, it was introduced in a Dragon article, along with Lancing Dagger, Resonating Dagger, and I believe one other.

That's awesome! Can a bard (songblade enhancement) or swordmage use it too?

[Urpriest]

That's awesome! Can a bard (songblade enhancement) or swordmage use it too?

Both should be able to, though I'm not sure if a swordmage would really benefit from a boost to implement-power-accuracy at the cost of that much damage on the majority of its powers. Also, you have to be proficient with dagger implements in some context to be able to take Superior Implement Proficiency (accurate dagger), so as a bard you'd need to multiclass sorceror or pick up Arcane Implement Proficiency.