Playing with a tier 3 whitelist

[Caphi]

A GM of mine is doing a 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid game, mostly by way of "Pathfinder base rules and 3.5 material open with GM lookover". He has decided to use this list of base classes and restrict all others.

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Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Sorceror
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Warmage
Bard
Duskblade
Oracle
Druid (spontaneous, shapeshift)
Psion
Ardent
Wilder
Psychic Warrior
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
Binder
Factotum
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept

Anything afoot with this? Any classes that should be in here that aren't? Someone messing something up for themselves is probably a bigger concern here than finding some sort of exploit, but either way.

We already have, as a tentative party list, a sorceror, a beguiler, a swordsage, and a crusader.

[Glimbur]

Soulborn is... unimpressive compared to other choices on that list.

I'm not sure how you are expected to deal with damage besides hp damage: Druids are not as good as Clerics at Restoration, raising the dead, removing curses or blindness or deafness, or other things I am forgetting at the moment. Pick up some wands of Lesser Vigor for hp damage.

Sorcerer, depending on spell and feat selection, could be stronger than other choices. Beguiler and Warmage together should cover most of the arcane casting needed, with Bard filling some gaps.

[Frosty]

The warlock will feel left behind. I don't know enough about Psionics but always be careful of full casters/manifesters (even a sorcerer is more than capable of breaking the world). Make sure to give Diamond Mind a new key skill, since Concentration is gone and you very much want things like Moment of Perfect Mind and Insightful Strike. I'd suggest Martial Lore (Int)

[Amphetryon]

Psion is, generally, as likely to dominate as any class; it normally is classified as a Tier 2, right along with Sorcerer. Binder can get there too if online vestiges are allowed.

[TooManyBadgers]

Ranger has a bunch of variants that should put it in there (Mystic, Wild Shape, Sublime Way). Alchemist, Inquisitioner and Summoner should also fit.

Psychic Rogue shouldn't be out of place, if you want it. Lurk would probably also work, but on the low end.

It's weird that Rogue isn't on there. I remember the reason for it being dropped from Tier 3 was that the Factotum was more powerful, not because anything about the Rogue class itself wasn't suited to the group.

Soulborn is probably Tier 5, maybe 4. A good player could manage to be useful to the party, but the class isn't going to help anybody contribute in more than one or two specific circumstances.

Sorcerers, Ardents, Psions and Wilders have a lot of very nasty tricks that could make the other classes struggle to keep up. I can't remember what the Oracle has access to, but I think it can do the same.

[Draz74]

I'm not sure how you are expected to deal with damage besides hp damage: Druids are not as good as Clerics at Restoration, raising the dead, removing curses or blindness or deafness, or other things I am forgetting at the moment. Pick up some wands of Lesser Vigor for hp damage.

If the Sangehirn prestige class is allowed, then a Psion/Sangehirn or Ardent/Sangehirn can make a pretty decent healer type (though there are still a couple odd Cleric spells here or there that are missing, such as Align Weapon). But Sangehirn's main ability doesn't kick in until ECL 9, so at low levels you'll still be pining for a Cleric.

Of course, UMD-monkeys with access to Cleric-spell items can do fine, if the DM is generous with things that you'll need to survive anyway.

[Frosty]

Scout and Ranger should really be on there, to help represent the ranged options.

[Caphi]

Soulborn noted.

I don't remember the full spontaneous casters being on the first run of the list, but someone complained about customizing casters and not having half the schools of magic. I don't mind playing with them, personally. I more dislike the ones that can rewrite their spells daily. I can handle sorcerors and oracles, I know where they stand.

I don't think the sorceror we have will do anything particularly outrageous - or any sorceror we'll probably have, really, knowing this metaplaygroup - but he will have all the non-shadow access to conjuration and transmutation. Apparently he plans to blast though (I'm not quite sure why he's not a warmage) so we'll see.

Wild shape ranger? Would it really fit?

For information, Oracle is a spontaneous cleric; they have access to the cleric spell list.

[TooManyBadgers]

Wild shape ranger? Would it really fit?

Through its skill list and utility shapes, it will usually have something to contribute, so the player should never be sitting on his hands.

WS reduces physical attribute reliance, so the Ranger can afford decent Int/Wis/Con, instead of spreading abilities around. The Spell compendium provides quite a few useful spells to make use of the increased ability modifers. (These are also quite affordable in wand-form.)

Shapes with multiple attacks, pounce, trip, etc. provide a strong base for a melee combatant, even when the base forms themselves aren't particularly intimidating. Using shenanigans to keep equipment in WS (putting it on after shaping or using wilding clasps), the Ranger should be able to keep WSed ability scores comparable to those of non-WS meleers.

Add PrC's like Master of Many Forms, Lion of Talisid, Moonspeaker, Nature's Warrior, etc. and feats like Frozen/Aberrant/Totem Wild Shape and you can push the WS ranger quite a bit further.

Compared to ToB classes, the WS Ranger might fall a bit behind in terms of combat ability, but it's dramatically more versatile in both combat strategy and out-of-combat utility.

[PId6]

Soulborn definitely shouldn't be there. Warlock isn't great there without help either, but it's at least more playable than soulborn. Same for warmage.

I'd suggest also allowing favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, rogue, scout, and knight.

[Caphi]

Badgers: Do keep in mind that the wild shape ranger would now duplicate beast shape I, which is +2 str or +2 dex tops. Pathfinder polymorphing is like that.

[Gnaeus]

I'd suggest also allowing favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, rogue, scout, and knight.

Agree with facored soul, although Oracle might take that spot. Shugenja is good. Scout and Rogue are good. Spirit Shaman is probably out, since they can rewrite their spell list every day, and Caphi didn't want that, although power-wise they aren't worse than Sorcerer. Knight is weaker than paladin (in general, but especially in a world lacking clerics, and doubly so with the PF paladin), and paladin didn't make the cut.

Badgers: Do keep in mind that the wild shape ranger would now duplicate beast shape I, which is +2 str or +2 dex tops. Pathfinder polymorphing is like that.

Well, MoMf would probably let it duplicate the better shapeshifting spells. Still much weaker than 3.5.

[TooManyBadgers]

Badgers: Do keep in mind that the wild shape ranger would now duplicate beast shape I, which is +2 str or +2 dex tops. Pathfinder polymorphing is like that.

Oh, good call.

I wasn't thinking about that sort of change. It probably wouldn't meet the mark then, without specific builds or player ingenuity.

[Zaq]

I agree that sorcerer and psion are probably too powerful and that soulborn is definitely too weak. (I'd also be wary of the wilder... they're capable of most of the tricks that a psion is, just not as many of them on the same character. Kind of like a sorcerer versus a wizard.)

The shadowcaster might be appropriate with a little bit of tweaking. Give them something to fall back upon (let them qualify for reserve feats, for example, or just give them an Eldritch Blast-equivalent) so they don't fall into crossbow mode quite so quickly, and they're pretty cool. They've got some powerful stuff, but overall I definitely wouldn't call them any worse than a beguiler or an ardent.

[Morph Bark]

Soulborn definitely shouldn't be there. Warlock isn't great there without help either, but it's at least more playable than soulborn. Same for warmage.

I'd suggest also allowing favored soul, shugenja, spirit shaman, rogue, scout, and knight.

I second Favoured Soul (only if Psion and Sorcerer are kept), Scout and Knight. Rogues might feel a bit left behind with other skill/trapmonkey classes up there, though, even with their Sneak Attack.

If you want only classes that could be called Tier 3... then just Scout. Knight perhaps too, but I'm not as familiar with it. You could always stack the Samurai's Intimidation stuff onto the Knight's things.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ardent is a powerful class.

Also I would consider allowing other classes as dips. Fighter and monk both make good two level dips, and many builds would be harder without them.

[Murdim]

Also I would consider allowing other classes as dips. Fighter and monk both make good two level dips, and many builds would be harder without them.

Also, Barbarian. While the straight class may be subpar, dipping for Rage is always an interesting option, and unlike most dips, it tends to actually bring flavor to the character. By blacklisting Barbarian, you're disabling a pretty wide range of character concepts for no good reason.

And now for something completely different... I think that your list is somewhat lacking in "skilled" classes. The PHB has Rogue, Ranger and Bard, three out of eleven. You have Factotum, Beguiler and Bard - three out of twenty-something, and none of those classes are adapted to wilderness savvy characters. Seeing that Swift Hunter builds are usually considered T3, a modified Ranger with the Scout's class skills and trapfinding and Skirmish abilities might be a good addition.

[Tyrmatt]

As it's usually mentioned in any tiers posting, I should mention that the Binder will need the online vestiges that are available in order to keep it in power with some others on this list.

There also not a lot of options for healing on that list, save the druid. Don't know if that's an issue.

[Frosty]

Also, Barbarian. While the straight class may be subpar, dipping for Rage is always an interesting option, and unlike most dips, it tends to actually bring flavor to the character. By blacklisting Barbarian, you're disabling a pretty wide range of character concepts for no good reason.

And now for something completely different... I think that your list is somewhat lacking in "skilled" classes. The PHB has Rogue, Ranger and Bard, three out of eleven. You have Factotum, Beguiler and Bard - three out of twenty-something, and none of those classes are adapted to wilderness savvy characters. Seeing that Swift Hunter builds are usually considered T3, a modified Ranger with the Scout's class skills and trapfinding and Skirmish abilities might be a good addition.

Don't forget dipping Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce is just so good...

[Greenish]

As it's usually mentioned in any tiers posting, I should mention that the Binder will need the online vestiges that are available in order to keep it in power with some others on this list.

It'll be handily in tier 3 even with just ToM vestiges.