Some questions on permanent shapechanging...

[Mnemnosyne]

I've been trying to find any lists of some of this stuff, but haven't really been particularly successful, (maybe I'm using poor search terms) so hopefully someone else knows all this stuff or knows where to find a guide or list about it.

First off, a couple questions about permanent changes I haven't been able to find the answer to, and I'm not even sure whether the answers exist in the rules.

If a human (or other LA +0 race) permanently changes themselves into something with a level adjustment (through PAO, for example, or even better example, through True Mind Switch), does their ECL immediately increase by the LA of the new form?

Also, if a human permanently turns into something else, I imagine they don't lose their feat or previously acquired skill points, right? Do they no longer acquire the additional skill point from then on?

Next, I haven't been able to find a list, so. Without counting classes that provide the transformation, how can a human permanently gain the Outsider type, or any other type not normally permitted by polymorph? True Mind Switch seems to be one possibility, but I'm looking for others.

Similarly, are there any ways to transform fully into a specific other creature, permanently? That is to say, gain all supernatural and spell-like abilities, which tend to be excluded from all the spells and powers I can find that enact permanent changes, otherwise.

[Kaww]

Well, this is just what I think...

Yes, your ECL does change with PaO.

I wouldn't allow you to keep any physical feats, because your physique changed. Any mental feats I'd allow you to keep. You could recover your physical feats via training. Same principle could be applied to skills.

You no longer gain extra skills granted as human racial.

You could ask your DM to allow you DMM persistent shapechange.

Personally, I'd just throw the book/dice at you, but people allow all sorts of things...

[Shadowleaf]

I doubt your ECL changes if you permantly change shape.

Polymorph Any Object gives you the Ex and Su abilities, doesn't it?

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another." I think that's the arguement. Since you actually become the thing, rather than just take its form, you also gain its abilities.

No where near 100% sure, though.

[Kaww]

Polymorph Any Object gives you the Ex and Su abilities, doesn't it?

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another." I think that's the arguement. Since you actually become the thing, rather than just take its form, you also gain its abilities.

No where near 100% sure, though.

I think that only Shapechange gives all EX and SU, including spells.

By: "except that it changes one object or creature into another." I think they meant that it couldn't be affected by dispel. Why print Shapechange in the same book with +1 lvl?

[Urpriest]

By: "except that it changes one object or creature into another." I think they meant that it couldn't be affected by dispel. Why print Shapechange in the same book with +1 lvl?

It can be affected by dispel. However, Polymorph can't affect objects. RAI, all that sentence is saying is that PaO affects objects. Few people interpret PaO as granting Su abilities, but there are some who use that sentence to justify an interpretation that, while Polymorph makes you resemble something else, PaO actually turns you into it, which means you can qualify for prestige classes that require your new race, for example.

[Shadowleaf]

It can be affected by dispel. However, Polymorph can't affect objects. RAI, all that sentence is saying is that PaO affects objects. Few people interpret PaO as granting Su abilities, but there are some who use that sentence to justify an interpretation that, while Polymorph makes you resemble something else, PaO actually turns you into it, which means you can qualify for prestige classes that require your new race, for example.

If your type/subtype changes, you qualify for the prestige classes. If it walks like a beholder, quacks like a beholder, looks like a beholder..

[Urpriest]

If your type/subtype changes, you qualify for the prestige classes. If it walks like a beholder, quacks like a beholder, looks like a beholder..

Beholder isn't a type or a subtype.

[Kaww]

Beholder isn't a type or a subtype.

If it walks like a beholder, quacks like a beholder, looks like a beholder..

Try aberration...

[Shadowleaf]

Beholder isn't a type or a subtype.

My point being - if you become Humanoid (Elf), you qualify for Elf prestige classes, since your subtype is now Elf, which is a requirement for Elf prestige classes.

[Urpriest]

My point being - if you become Humanoid (Elf), you qualify for Elf prestige classes, since your subtype is now Elf, which is a requirement for Elf prestige classes.

True but irrelevant. Let's say someone PaO's you into a Beholder. You become an Aberration. However, there is no Beholder subtype. Do you qualify for the Beholder Mage prestige class?

[Milskidasith]

True but irrelevant. Let's say someone PaO's you into a Beholder. You become an Aberration. However, there is no Beholder subtype. Do you qualify for the Beholder Mage prestige class?

Seeing as you are a beholder, yes.