Improved Weapon Finesse (3.5 Feat)

[Lix Lorn]

Weapon Finesse

Prerequisites: Dex 13

Benefit: You may utilise your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength Modifier on melee attack rolls for any weapon you wield. In addition, weapons that can are marked as finesse weapons, (light weapons, plus the whip, rapier, spiked chain, as long as they're made for your size category) can also use your Dexterity Modifier instead of your strength modifier for Damage rolls.

Greater Weapon Finesse

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse

Benefit: You may use your Dexterity Modifier in place of your Strength Modifier on all melee attack and damage rolls.

[DrWeird]

So, according to this...I can use my dexterity modifier to swing my bastard sword? My greataxe?

[Mongoose87]

So, according to this...I can use my dexterity modifier to swing my bastard sword? My greataxe?

At the "low" cost of two feats. It's balanced, IMO.

[Lix Lorn]

Glad to hear it.

[Roc Ness]

Hooray! Katana finesse!

[DrWeird]

Well, that makes...very little sense. Being nimble won't help you heft some of the heaviest weapons in the entire game; I can't really complain about that, I never play classes who'd need it. The problem here - at least the only one I think is glaring, is that it negates the entire purpose of composite bows.

It, it just doesn't make sense. It just feels like an excuse for rangers and rogues to turn into kill machines for the cost of two feats. I thought it was already pretty balanced.

[Spiryt]

It, it just doesn't make sense.

Just like entire 3.5 combat system. Especially that nonsense about "finesse" and "non finesse" weapons.

It's pretty okay probably.

[Roc Ness]

While I'm not sure about the rogues, I think you'll agree with me that the rangers need more killing machine status.

[DrWeird]

Nnnot really. This totally counteracts the reason that characters that get two weapon fighting and sneak attacks can finesse certain weapons.

[Mongoose87]

Nnnot really. This totally counteracts the reason that characters that get two weapon fighting and sneak attacks can finesse certain weapons.

How does it counteract the reason characters get TWF? I'd say it syngergizes well with TWF, which needs all the help it can get.

[DrWeird]

Well, with this, I don't have to put in a single point in strength - everybody can just put their highest martial stat in dexterity, and their AC and attacks and damage is now all consolidated.

I'd really think that the second feat should require, in the current mechanics, a high BAB and dexterity. It definitely should be for levels 10+.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, Dr Weird, theoretically, a character with Str 3, Dex 3 can wield a Battleaxe. This feat just means that a character with Str 3 Dex 18 can actually do something with it.
As well, if you're dextrous, you can get around your enemy's blocks, and you can hit in a painful place-thus hitting and damage.

Plus, your pre-last post... makes no sense. Sorry. Reword it so I get what you're talking about?

(Also, Bastard Sword proficiency requires Str 13)

What's more, Rogues and Rangers aren't exactly killing machines. In fact, melee in general couldn't suffer much by being improved. XD

Finally, Composite Bows aren't negated. It says melee.

Edit: Why?
You could equally put not a single point in Dexterity, and wear heavy armour. Makes no difference.

[DrWeird]

I don't quite understand what you mean, but I'll try to explain what I meant.

Rogues and rangers and such are...quick. Quick with lighter weapons that they can hide and conceal. If they take these two feats, they can start dual wielding any one-handed weapon at levels when it should be, like, two light weapons.

With these feats, it negates the purpose of strength. That is, to represent the ability to wield heavy objects, whereas dexterity is your nimbleness or agility or whatever you'd like to call it.

As well, if you're dextrous, you can get around your enemy's blocks, and you can hit in a painful place-thus hitting and damage.

yeah, but being dextrous won't help you heft a battleaxe. A rapier? Sure. Battleaxe? No.

I should clarify it's not the entire feat I can't stomach, it's being able to wield ANY weapon and use dexterity for attack rolls. I really don't like shooting people down, so my proposition is to require, for the second feat, a BAB higher than 10, and a certain high degree of dexterity. That is, to get it at a level where it is useful but they have to earn it.

[Lix Lorn]

And mechanically, the difference between dual wielding light and one handed weapons is about 1d6 to 1d10, maybe. Not much difference.

It won't help you LIFT the axe, no. But if you're strong enough to lift it, it will help you wield it. If you've ever fought with a melee weapon, you know that dexterity is VITALLY important. You can use strength-or dexterity. Always.

Admittedly, axes are pretty exclusively Strength... but hey. It's fantasy.

[Spiryt]

yeah, but being dextrous won't help you heft a battleaxe. A rapier? Sure. Battleaxe? No.

It would. At least in reality.

The whole problem of weapon finesse is that you use either Dex or Strength to use it and plainly retarded distinction between "light" finessable weapons and "heavy" ones...

This topic was often touched in this forum.

You can use strength-or dexterity. Always.

Admittedly, axes are pretty exclusively Strength... but hey. It's fantasy.

Not really, especially that coining such terms like "strength" or "dexterity" to describe real beings, not 6 attribute characters is tricky at beast.

Axe used only with "strength" will hit hard... And that's it.

Not to mention that it's actually impossible to hit anything hard without quickness, coordination and other stuff put under "Dex" in 3.5

[DrWeird]

I don't play enough dual-wielding characters to make a case, but my only real suggestion if this is used is requiring a high dexterity and a bab at least higher than ten for the second feat.

[Lix Lorn]

I really don't think it's necessary. I have Dex 13 at best, and my fighting style is dex based.
While dual wielding katana. So Yeah.

Plus, my previously mentioned Dex 8 Str 18 heavy armour character works at level 1.
So, with TWO FEATS, why can't a Dex 18 Str 8 light armour person work at level 1?

[DrWeird]

Look, all I'm saying is, the benefit from these two feats created means that there is no reason to invest in anything but dual-wielded weapons of any pairing, and really seems like a homebrew for you to get your dual katana fix and make it work to me. It's not just a question of plausibility which in fantasy games can be easily ignored; it's a question of mechanics, when suddenly you can wield two longswords like they were daggers at level one when your dexterity is barely higher than the measured human average in the game. That's my final word on it; I've stated what I thought, and you may choose to accept it or ignore it.

[Lix Lorn]

Reason one: You can do that IN REAL LIFE. AS I STATED. CAUSE *I* CAN DO IT.
Reason two: TWF sucks. So it doesn't make much difference.
Reason three: Mechanically, there's no difference between having high strength, low dex and armour, and having high dex, low strength, and two feats spent. The latter is probably weaker: Feats are FAR better tan gold.

[Temotei]

(Also, Bastard Sword proficiency requires Str 13)

Wielding it in two hands makes it a martial weapon and gets rid of that prerequisite.

Oh, and this is going on the list.

On topic: The feats are balanced, in my opinion. You don't need feats to make Strength work for weapons, after all. Spending some feats to make yourself slightly less MAD, more flavorful, and have more fun is a good thing in my book.

[Oslecamo]

Reason two: TWF sucks. So it doesn't make much difference.
Reason three: Mechanically, there's no difference between having high strength, low dex and armour, and having high dex, low strength, and two feats spent. The latter is probably weaker: Feats are FAR better tan gold.

There is several big diferences.
-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves. Also Dex doesn't screw your skills or slows you down.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently, escape artist). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

So two feats is actualy a cheap price to allow me to make a melee character solely focused on one stat while geting several free goodies on top (improved stealth, iniative, reflex saves, touch AC, ranged attacks).

Heck, I don't even need two feats. Rapier, make sure you have Str 13 to pick power attack, wield it with two hands to get 1,5 Dex bonus to damage and go to town. You're superior to any str-based melee build exept the most extreme uber chargers, and even then you're still just one feat away from being superior to them too.

Feats are more valuable than gold, but being able to focus in one single stat is more valuable than feats.

[DrWeird]

Thank you for putting it in better terms than I could, Oslecamo.

[Temotei]

There is several big diferences.
-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

So two feats is actualy a cheap price to allow me to make a melee character solely focused on one stat while geting several free goodies on top (improved stealth, iniative, reflex saves, touch AC, ranged attacks).

Heck, I don't even need two feats. Rapier, make sure you have Str 13 to pick power attack, wield it with two hands to get 1,5 Dex bonus to damage and go to town. You're superior to any str-based melee build exept the most extreme uber chargers, and even then you're still just one feat away from being superior to them too.

Feats are more valuable than gold, but being able to focus in one single stat is more valuable than feats.

Rapiers can't be wielded in two hands for 1.5x Strength bonus to damage.

You still will probably need Constitution, though. Just saying. It's not a strong argument, as any other fighter will spend an equal amount on it (most likely), but hey.

[Oslecamo]

Rapiers can't be wielded in two hands for 1.5x Strength bonus to damage.

Says who?

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed

When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.

The rules are clear. It doesn't need to be a two-handed weapon. As long as you grab it with both hands and it isn't a light weapon it hits harder than holding it with a single hand. Rapier isn't a light weapon so you can grab it with both hands for extra damage.

Savage Species even expands this by stating that creatures with multiple arms can use them all to grab a single weapon and increase the Str multiplier even more.

You still will probably need Constitution, though. Just saying. It's not a strong argument, as any other fighter will spend an equal amount on it (most likely), but hey.

Everybody but elven wizards with fairy mystery initiate invests in Con. Even druids. Is a given. Unless you're planning into becoming a necropolitan but anyone can do it.

[Spiryt]

Geeez.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

From rapier section

[Oslecamo]

Geeez.



From rapier section.

Use a spiked chain in that case. Costs you a feat but half the melee builds will be picking one anyway.

And even then, the points about improved iniative/touch AC/stealth for a Dex based build still apply.

[Zaydos]

There's already a feat that lets you use Dex for damage. It is considered a good feat despite requiring Weapon Finesse to add Dex to Attack, and requiring a Shadow Hand stance and Shadow Hand weapon to use. It's called Shadow Blade. It's a good fully usable feat. At the cost of 2 feats, and either another 2 feats or a level of Swordsage you can get a worse version of this ability and it is still considered a good deal. Shadow Blade costs you the ability to use big weapons, and the ability to use non-Shadow Hand stances, this is a decent cost in addition to 2 feats (and either 2 more or Swordsage).

This is an in every way better version of Shadow Hand for 1 feat, and then an even better version for a 2nd. You don't need that. This actually makes Str above 13 pointless for 2 feats even on a Power Attack based character, so it's not exclusive to 2-Weapon Fighting either. Also Two-Weapon Fighting gets its damage from number of attacks, with the ability to consolidate all your stats into one score it gets not just a small boost but a very large one. At level 1 this is an even bigger boost (Elven Fighter, 2 Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse; 20 Dex, 2 shortswords; Studded Leather Armor; 18 AC, +4/+4 to hit, 1d6+5 damage per hit). That's not a particularly optimized build either; halfling sacrifices 1 damage per hit for +1 to hit and AC and is probably better.

[137beth]

It doesn't seem to make sense that a giant's hammer would benefit from dexterity.

[Temotei]

It doesn't seem to make sense that a giant's hammer would benefit from dexterity.

Sense? What is this sense you speak of? This is D&D!

Maybe splitting these into three feats would be better, but I'm not positive.

[Lix Lorn]

I could split it into three if everyone agrees that would be better.

-High Dex>>> Armor because it applies to touch attacks and dex boosts reflex saves. Also Dex doesn't screw your skills or slows you down.
-On top of that Dex boosts iniative that can decide battles. Str boosts carrying capacity wich can decide... Not that much really.
-High dex also makes you better at ranged combat and boosts several good skills (hide, move silently, escape artist). Str-based skills are weaker (what was the last time you saw someone use swim/jump/climb?) and besides that str only matters for grapple checks.
-Combat reflexes, a quite important feat for melee builds, is dex-based.

I dunno about the first part. Dex 20, which would require a +race at level 1 (Plus a flaw to get the second feat to actually take the second of these feats) gives you +5 armour. MEDIUM armour can give you +5 armour.

...your other points are relevant. :/