[3.5] Healing Lorecall (too) good?

[Frosty]

If I'm reading the spell (Spell Compendium version, if there's a different one out there) correctly, I can cast Healing Lorecall, and then spend the 6 Cure Minor Wounds cantrips that I've prepared to remove dazed, dazzled, faituged, exhausted, nauseated, or sickened 6 times?

And then of course however many times I've also prepared Lesser Vigor, Cure moderate Wounds, Lesser Restorations, etc also help?

Basically, there's no limit on what level the spell can be in order for Healing Lorecall to work?

[Claudius Maximus]

I don't think it's overpowered considering you have to spend actions to remove those effects, most of which will be short-term enough to mean that you'd be healing in the middle of a battle, which is not an optimal way to spend actions.

Also you need ranks in Heal, which might otherwise be considered unnecessary on a character who can obviously cast healing magic.

[icefractal]

What CM said. Fatigued and Exhausted are the only conditions on that list that would usually last beyond a battle anyway, and not even always those.

[Toliudar]

Yeah, I've only ever seen it used out of combat, and usually all it does is speed up the transition back to the action again. Seems like a good idea to me.

[lesser_minion]

I don't think being able to wring a 4th-level effect out of a 0-level spell is a good thing.

Even if nobody reports a problem, I'd recommend adding on limits -- requiring a 3rd level spell for the 10-rank effects and a 1st level spell for the 5-rank effects might work.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of 3rd-party and homebrew material that this does break as well. People who use fatigue as a mitigating factor do not expect it to be undone with a cantrip.

[Frosty]

4th level effect? You mean Restoration?

[lesser_minion]

4th level effect? You mean Restoration?

Yes. Unless I'm missing a lower-level spell with a similar effect.

[AmberVael]

Yes. Unless I'm missing a lower-level spell with a similar effect.

The better comparison is Panacea, as it focuses on conditions more than restoration.

That said, there's a major difference.

Healing Lorecall does not remove conditions. If you have a certain number of ranks in heal, have Healing Lorecall, and cast a certain type of spell, you can remove one condition per spell you cast.

Therefore, Panacea/Restoration are far better for removing multiple conditions at once, and only costs a single slot to remove all of them at once. Healing Lorecall requires one slot plus one slot per condition you want to remove. This uses up slots and actions far quicker.


In total, I do think Healing Lorecall is a better use of your resources... but there's definitely a reason for the other ones, too. They're not entirely invalidated, and are especially better in combat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Bah, bards have this beat. A bard ACF called healing hymn allows a bard to add his ranks in preform to all healing from all healing spells... For the whole party...

Useing a cantrap to heal CL+4 hp is powerful.

Take a dip in warweaver and your level zero spell also effect multiple targets.

Now you can spend one bardic music use and one level 0th spell and heal CL+4 hp to the whole party.

Removing fatuige is not that powerful, and you are limited in the number of cantraps you have all day, unless you want to use higher level slots.

Is it a broken spell. No. Is it powerful for a cantrap. Yes. If you have problems with it make it a level one spell. That puts it in competition with cure spells.

[Frosty]

I just like how my Lesser Vigors now heal HP *and* cure conditions.

[lesser_minion]

In total, I do think Healing Lorecall is a better use of your resources... but there's definitely a reason for the other ones, too. They're not entirely invalidated, and are especially better in combat.

Well, as I said, the main issue I can see is people not knowing about Healing Lorecall and using Lesser Restoration and Restoration as a benchmark for what Fatigue and Exhaustion are worth when writing their own material.

I'd be surprised if nobody had considered using those two conditions as a mitigating factor to something in their own homebrew.

Although you're right that there probably aren't any other issues this poses, and even the 3rd party thing is not exactly a showstopper.

[Paul H]

Hi

I'm in a High level Age of Worms campaign (20th lvl), but I use Healing Lorecall to increase my CL for Healing spells.

With Healing Domain power, and 23 ranks in Heal, I'm CL 24 for spells off Healing Domain. I use Mass Heal against Undead, (plus healing party). How's 360HP* damage/healing sound? (I know, 9th lvl spell).

And all those higher level spells can resolve many other conditions too, which Healing Lorecall can't.

Thanks
Paul H
*PS I'm Clr 9/RSoP10/Contemplative 1

[icefractal]

Yes. Unless I'm missing a lower-level spell with a similar effect.

Restoration cures ability damage - the fact that it removes some conditions is like the whipped cream on a piece of pie. Fireball can be used to start a fire, but that doesn't mean that "starting a fire" should require a 3rd level spell to accomplish.

[Pechvarry]

The other problem with using restoration as a benchmark is the problem with everything in 3.5: there's really no power given to the healing/recovery type action. If 4th level is the benchmark, then Spell Compendium came along and said "Holy crap, our best spell for removing these extremely trivial effects is 4th level! And we have this Healing skill that not even dedicated healers pick up!" So they set a new benchmark.

As with most things, this is actually a ToB thread.

[Frosty]

Speaking of which, besides Healing Lorecall, how else is the Heal skill actually useful? Specifically for a Druid?

[Glimbur]

Heal is nice at low levels if you don't have enough spell slots/casting ability to fix all the hp and ability damage you take. First Aid can be useful, again at low levels where you don't all have a healing belt. Treating poisons and diseases lets you use a skill check instead of a save, which is generally better.

tl;dr It's nice before it's obsoleted by magic.

[true_shinken]

tl;dr It's nice before it's obsoleted by magic.

Like, ya know, everything non-magic in D&D.

[Frosty]

I'm immune to poison as a druid, and also get Remove Disease myself as a third level spell. So I guess it really *is* completely pointless at mid-levels huh?

[Glimbur]

The rest of your party can still get poisoned. If you don't have enough Delay/Remove poison prepped, treating them so they make the save v secondary effects might be useful. That's stretching for a use, though.

[jiriku]

I have played a number of cleric characters and used to frequently prep healing lorecall. I never really used it very much -- there was almost always something more important to do with my actions and spell slots. Often I'd just convert the slot to a cure moderate wounds anyhow. Eventually I stopped prepping it and switched to spells like close wounds and cat's grace, which are a lot more generally useful.


The Heal skill is quite helpful at low to mid levels for helping allies make their save against the secondary effects of poison. Since most combats are over before secondary effects trigger, it's trivial to walk over to your ally, tend his poisoned wound, and give him a better save. That's a big benefit at low levels when you haven't the gold for a wand of lesser restoration and you haven't the spell slots to be throwing away 2nd-level spells at the drop of a hat.

[Zaq]

Healing Lorecall is fine. You have to burn a lot of skill ranks on an otherwise not-very-useful skill, you have to bother to prep it (possibly more than once if you really care about it, since it's 10 min/level.), you need to spend spells and actions on healing spells (which otherwise tend to be kind of lackluster at best), and you usually have to spend an action casting it (10 min/level isn't bad, but for the majority of your career, it's definitely not an all-day affair) if you want the benefits to be useful in combat... and all for a benefit which is, frankly, situational at best (the increased CL is nice, but other than that? All of the spell's effects rely entirely on your enemies) overall.

I don't see any way in which this is overpowered. There's a lot of opportunity costs involved with making any real use of it... which is more than you can say for most spells, frankly.

[Paul H]

Hi

As I said earlier - Healing Lorecall, plus maxing out ranks in Heal can increase your CL for Healing Spells.

Maybe not the optimal use of skill points in all builds, but still, it is an option. (Why my character's CL for healing is greater than his HD)!

Thanks
Paul H

[Chipp Zanuff]

Bah, bards have this beat. A bard ACF called healing hymn allows a bard to add his ranks in preform to all healing from all healing spells... For the whole party...

Binders>Bards. No ACFs needed, infinite healing starting at 7th.


DNs get it even better, but Binders don't care what feats your party has.

[Optimator]

As for reasons to put ranks into Heal, I remember one of the books giving rules for determining how a creature died using the Heal skill. Not super useful, but it occasionally comes up.

[Fax Celestis]

Therefore, Panacea/Restoration are far better for removing multiple conditions at once, and only costs a single slot to remove all of them at once. Healing Lorecall requires one slot plus one slot per condition you want to remove. This uses up slots and actions far quicker.

Plus, you're a step behind on healing lorecall: its 1 min/lev duration means you can't cast it and have it hang all day (unless you DMM Persist it up), which really means you're going to cast it mid-combat and thereby be a whole turn behind as well.

Of the lorecalls, I think healing is the weakest. Balancing and listening both are far superior IMO.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Plus, you're a step behind on healing lorecall: its 1 min/lev duration means you can't cast it and have it hang all day (unless you DMM Persist it up), which really means you're going to cast it mid-combat and thereby be a whole turn behind as well.

I’ve always been in the habit of saving my minute per levels for fights where my party’s the instigator. Then I can avoid wasting rounds of combat by casting it just a few rounds before hand. Makes it useful if you’re getting the drop on something and expect it to drop one or more of those conditions on you.