Catching a warforged off guard...4E

[NoAdvantageBP]

I was, as DM, going to make my party get stuff stolen from them while they were sleeping, but then I told them they could have a warforged character, not thinking about the fact that they don't sleep and are always aware of their surroundings. My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.

Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

[Randel]

Well, I suppose you could have some kind of 'anti-magic' field that keeps their magic items from working. I don't think 4th edition has rules for it but you could rule-0 it so that they physically have their stuff but they just can't use them.

Alternately, the people who come in to steal the players stuff could have a high stealth and use something to disable the warforged before they attack. If the warforged is the only thing keeping watch then figure out a way to disable him before he can alert the others and then have the stuff stolen. Maybe a silence field could be tossed in as well so that he can't alert the others easily (if the camp is under silence then the warforged couldn't ring a bell to wake the others and thus each round he would have to either use his actions to attack the enemy or wake the others).

[Weasel of Doom]

I don't think it's a good idea to arbitrarily say their loot was stolen. I'd make it into an encounter which they have a chance of winning and also have a reason for someone to steal their stuff as opposed to just kill them in thier sleep.

Having a bunch of rogues with silent spells attack means that if they don't wake up at least the 'forged has a cool story to tell after and they have someone to get revenge on.

Alternatively make it something big like all magic items in a huge radius suddenly explode or stop working, might be interesting.

[Kurald Galain]

Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

Easy. Cast Sleep on him.

[Marnath]

Easy. Cast Sleep on him.

Are they not immune to that anymore in 4e?

[Kurald Galain]

Are they not immune to that anymore in 4e?

No. Aside from a few points of elemental resistance, immunities to anything are extremely rare in 4E. Except for poison - nearly all undead are immune to that. I don't think player characters can get any immunities before epic level.

[Sir_Elderberry]

In 4e Tomb of Horrors, possibly others, characters get teleported without their gear by certain traps. This seems like something the party could easily be duped into--taking a teleporter to go fight someone who asks "What, you though I'd let my enemies get to me and then fight fair?" Their loot can even be easily stored in a treasure room nearby, since he wants their gear for himself.

[cupkeyk]

What level are they?

One of the easier ways of temporarily removing a party's gear is to have them take them off. A nice dinner party where they must wear fine clothing and bring no weapons/implements. A swim that may require them removing armor, maybe? A magnetized floor where they have to remove metallic gear to get an object at the far end of the room.

[holywhippet]

I wasn't entirely sure about warforged and "sleep". My impression was that they go into shutdown mode which means they don't/can't move around but are aware of their surroundings. I wasn't sure if they could come back to active mode at will or if they had to complete their "sleep" cycle. If not, they might see hooded figures stealing from the party but not be able to respond.

Also, as someone else said, awareness is the same as just using standard spot checks. So if someone has stealth better than the warforged's spot checks they can get around it.

[Tiki Snakes]

So, you can pretty much guarentee the Warforged will be on watch at the time?

Well, what you need sir, is a robotically-minded mind controller.

Take over it's mind from hiding and at range, (A nice 1/day level power type thing, perhaps, with really solid numbers). The Warforged picks up the parties equipment, hands it over and goes and buries his head in the sand.

Party wakes up; The warforged is upside down in the dunny and all their clothes are gone.

[tcrudisi]

I was, as DM, going to make my party get stuff stolen from them while they were sleeping, but then I told them they could have a warforged character, not thinking about the fact that they don't sleep and are always aware of their surroundings. My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.

Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

Yep, change the campaign. Don't steal their stuff, as that's really annoying to suffer through as a player. Instead, come up with a reason for their magic items to stop working temporarily.

Perhaps something happens in the world and magic items cease functioning. The characters will either have to complete their current quest without magic items or leave it behind a short time to figure out why magic items have stopped working and try to fix it.

This allows you a reason for them to be without magic items while preparing encounters that won't over-run them since they are without items, and allows them to fix the problem themselves.

To me, this is a lot more interesting than "your stuff was stolen - lol omg rofl haxxors".

[Urpriest]

Do be aware that 4e isn't built for characters without magic items except at very low level. Monster defenses are set at a baseline that assumes magic weapons, and deviating from that baseline doesn't make fights more challenging so much as it makes them largely pointless and poorly designed.

[Guy]

My ultimate goal is to see how my party can do without all the goodies I've let them acquire. I was them to rely on themselves.
Any ideas how I can get around this Warforged or another way to do this?

How about you just let them have their things, not be a lying DM who gives out magic items only to turn around and figure out a way to automatically steal everything from the party just to say "hah, you were relying on magic items". That's not how the system works.

[NoAdvantageBP]

Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.

[Urpriest]

Most magic items don't have an effect on skills. If they don't actually get into combat while sans items I could see it being more reasonable. Force them to roleplay out of a situation before getting their stuff back, rather than fighting their way out.

[tcrudisi]

So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.

Welcome to D&D. Kill monsters, get their magical items, use said magic items to kill more monsters to get their magic items... and so on and so on (with gaining experience thrown in).

Most magic items don't have an effect on skills. If they don't actually get into combat while sans items I could see it being more reasonable. Force them to roleplay out of a situation before getting their stuff back, rather than fighting their way out.

I agree with this if you are going to have their stuff stolen. But really, speaking as my experiences as a player, having my stuff stolen is just really, really annoying. I'd rather something be occurring that is causing my magic items to not work and I have to fix it. At least then it doesn't feel like the DM is just yanking back everything I've worked hard to get and it feels more like the next challenge that my character must overcome in his adventuring life.

Also, there are inherent bonuses which can make up for a lack of magic items. There are ways to take away magic items and incorporate inherent bonuses until they get those items back.

[Guy]

Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.

Yeah, serves them right for relying on those passive + to armor and hit bonuses they are assumed to have by the game in order to keep the system math working fluidly. How dare they.

[MrSinister]

What you could do is just use rogues or assassins and stealth the party's stuff away. Just because the warforged is aware of his surroundings doesn't mean a rogue can't sneak behind him and gank the party. A shadar-kai assassin could do this even easier, using that assassin at-will teleport to move all over the place.

And I think that would be a cool encounter, having the party lose their stuff and have to use their wits to get it back. What I would do in the initial robbing is try to make it some kind of skill challenge, with a total success meaning the party gets to keep some of their stuff.

Perhaps the least the thieves can get away with is some kind of plot-powered McGuffin?

[Mando Knight]

So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.

Not just magical items. Equipment in general is extremely important to multiple classes. None of the Defenders can properly do their job without their armor, which for the Swordmage includes his blade (though the Swordmage's armor is mostly his brain and blade, so he can almost get away with it). Other than the Monk, Beast-spec Druid, and the Brawler Fighter, melee characters in general can't function without their weapons, and neither can ranged-weapon characters such as crossbow Rogues, archer Rangers, and Seekers.

If you're going to have "lolsteal while u sleep" encounters, then the party will start carrying at least one Eladrin or Warforged in the team at all times... neither one takes a penalty to Perception while taking an extended rest. Players don't like to be stolen from. Along with arbitrary character death, it may be the leading cause of tabletop ragequit.

[Reluctance]

What items are they overly reliant on? Between daily use limitations (both per-item and per-character) and the limited amount of gimmicky auto-win items, I'm not seeing how they do much more than normal items beyond "hit as often as you're expected to".

[Knaight]

Yeah, serves them right for relying on those passive + to armor and hit bonuses they are assumed to have by the game in order to keep the system math working fluidly. How dare they.

Please, its not as if working around that is at all difficult. Besides, in some genres rapid item swap out is pretty much mandatory, most notably Sword and Sorcery. As a player, that is among my favorite fantasy genres, so clearly there is at least one person who considers getting stuff stolen fun in certain circumstances.

[Kurald Galain]

A swim that may require them removing armor, maybe?

Wearing armor gives you only a -1 to swimming checks, though.

So, you can pretty much guarentee the Warforged will be on watch at the time?

Sure, or the revenant, or the elf; there are plenty of races in 4E that don't need to sleep.

So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items.

It's not that hard to work around. A high heroic party will have about +3 to hit and +2 to defense from magical items, so if their items get stolen, have them encounter monsters that have 3 less in defenses and -2 to their to-hit rolls. Problem solved.

This assumes the PCs can make an improvised weapon (easy enough) and that their armor doesn't get stolen (because frankly, stealing armor is a bit silly anyway, and characters can sleep in armor anyway).

[Drakefall]

Also, there are inherent bonuses which can make up for a lack of magic items. There are ways to take away magic items and incorporate inherent bonuses until they get those items back.

+ 1 to this.

Perhaps you can also take it up with your players that you'd like a campaign where magic items are rare and awesome, retcon most of the magic items away and use inherent bonuses. They might be up for it.

Inherent bonuses are in the PHB 2 by the way... I think.

[hamishspence]

Just as long as the person responsible doesn't hold a knife to the warforged's neck and say "What's this? A warforged caught off his guard?"

[Sinfonian]

If you wanted to continue with the original plan, you could take an old DM's copout, you could simply have them non-lethally captured and stripped of their items. Any number of variations for this exist: mistaken identity, actual crimes of the party for which they're being brought to justice, slavers, etc.

In any of these cases, it'd be fairly easy to make them spend a brief time without their items and them have them get them back, either through having them given back by their captors (though they'd need a good reason not to kill said captors out of revenge, or that could be a plot hook) or have them just have to fight their way out of captivity and back to their swag.

That said, you'd probably want to give them access to some kind of equipment, or at least enough to function at the bare-minimum level.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Thank you all for your help.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean to come off with the intention of robbing them of everything for good. I meant to incorporate them getting robbed into the game with the party eventually getting their stuff back as part of the mission. I want them to not be as reliant on the magical items as they are right now, and start coming up with other means of victory. So actually, it does worry me a little that this system is based around the having magical items. Some people may consider what I am going to do to be a douche bag thing to do. I consider it a challenge for my players.

...in what sense are they relying on their magic? Like Kurald said, 4E doesn't really have a lot of "utility magic" lying around to replace problem-solving.

What exactly are you trying to address? Examples would be nice.

Anyhow: the easiest way to deprive them of their equipment is either voluntarially (the party route) or the Test of Bravery - some group insists that the party overcome an obstacle course with only what they can find. They have to run through naked or something.

DMing your way into a "steal everything LOL" situtation is just going to tick off your players - trust me.

[icefractal]

I'm here to recommend that you do not go the "you went to a party, so your stuff was taken" or the "guards capture you and take your stuff" routes.

Most players hate losing their stuff. How much they hate it depends on several factors, like whether the resulting difficulties were entertaining, and whether they get it back in a reasonable amount of time. But as a rule, they dislike it.

And as with other things they dislike, doing it even once can make them paranoid about it. Now if you steal it while they're sleeping, that will make them paranoid about sleeping. They might post more watches, always share a room at the inn, set up alarm spells, or other precautions. But those shouldn't be too much of a hassle for your game - unless you were planning to do this frequently, which I really would recommend against.

But if you use "going to a party in regular clothes" or "cooperating with the city authorities" as a way of yoinking their gear, then they will become paranoid about those things. And then you'll see people going to parties in their armor (or just not going), making elaborate plans to sneak into every city without going through the gate, and refusing to surrender to anyone under any circumstances. Those are pretty disruptive to any campaign with social/intrigue aspirations, and it's entirely possible that the behaviors will carry over to other campaigns, even those with other DMs.

So basically, if you make any activity you don't want to discourage the reason for screwing with the PCs, then you're poisoning the well for not just yourself, but future DMs as well. Don't do it.

[mobdrazhar]

if you really want to get rid of some of thier items just use the old, mean trick of rust beetles

[NoAdvantageBP]

...in what sense are they relying on their magic?

In the sense that my players don't think they natural powers are good enough, and they want more and more magical items to enhance them.

P.S. I can't figure out how to do the multiple quotes some do. Can someone help with that?

Sinfonian: I have actually had one person in the campaign captured and his stuff taken, but no one wanted to go back and get it. Why, you ask? Probably cause it was an NPC and no one cared.

Kurald Galain: I like your idea of adjusting the monsters. I was just not sure how to go about it. Also, I wouldn't have EVERYTHING stolen from them. E.G. Armor, main weapon. Just all the frills. E.G. A collar that adds to Dex, gloves that add to climbing, boots that add to speed.

Guy: I accept any criticism, but your kind is just obnoxious. You really sound like your name should be 'Little boy'. Could you please be more constructive?

[Urpriest]

Kurald Galain: I like your idea of adjusting the monsters. I was just not sure how to go about it. Also, I wouldn't have EVERYTHING stolen from them. E.G. Armor, main weapon. Just all the frills. E.G. A collar that adds to Dex, gloves that add to climbing, boots that add to speed.

There is no such thing as any item that adds to any ability score in 4e, so your collar that adds to Dex should not exist. It really messes with the system when people get ability scores outside of their assumed progression.

Also, the mere fact that non-weapon non-armor non-neck-slot magic items are relevant to your characters speaks well for their ingenuity (besides a few basic ones like Iron Armbands of Power and Rushing Cleats). Care to describe a scenario in which they used these items effectively? I just want to see what you're dealing with here.