Turn Undead and DMM

[Paganboy28]

Is there any other class apart from the Cleric and the Sacred Exorcist that give the ability to turn undead at 1st level for a 1 level dip?

Andif using Turning for DMM, then is it worth multiple investments into more than one metamagic feat, or is it best to use it with Persistant metamagic? Even though this is feat-heavy in terms of you would probably need Extra Turning and Extend Spell as pre-requisites.

Also, unless you are an actual cleric or something that starts with DMM then is this worth the dip and feats to get one spell persistant compared to the other abilities you could pick up?

Whilst I can see the benefit of 24hr Arcane Spellsurge or other such spells this is expensive.

Also, getting enough Turn Attempts for the above, you would need 7 per day right? So 3+Cha which means a Cha mod of 4 or more. This leads to MAD unless you bump it using magic items/spells.

As an Archivist I need Int and Wis whilst Cha is a sort of dump stat. So having to put points into Cha as well would mean weakening my other abilities.

So all in all is getting the DMM-Persistant combo worth this?

[Sinfonian]

This bit isn't going to be of much help, but it's all I can offer: I honestly can't think of any better way to get Turning than the ways you stated, though if you go Cleric, you should pick the Cloistered Cleric variant for the free Knowledge Devotion feat, which ought to have good synergy with the Dark Knowledge class feature. Taking the Planning domain would also save you a feat on Extend Spell.

After you get turning, you may want to think about using Nightsticks (DM permitting, as some are touchy about them), even if they don't stack, to get your number of Turn attempts up. If you can get even one, that will provide 3 uses for you.

I believe DMM is best used with things you otherwise either wouldn't be able to do otherwise or wouldn't be willing to sacrifice much higher spell slots to do.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but DMM only requires 1 Turn usage per level of metamagic reduction. Therefore, a DMM: Persisted spell would only take 6 attempts rather than the expected 7. Combined with a set of Nightsticks, that'll bring you down to 3 needed from Cha, or you could still dump Cha and pick up the Extra Turning feat (though using DMM is already fairly feat intensive).

Disclaimer: Away from books, may be either slightly inaccurate or completely off-base.

[Flawless]

It takes 7 uses of turn undead to DMM:Persist a spell. The formula is:
1 + Spell Level Adjustment of the meta magic.

[zaulsiin]

As Flawless said, DMM requires 1 + <metamagic level adjust>, so 7 is the correct number.

Also, going Cloistered Cleric as a 1-level dip as an Archivist means you get: Turn Undead use, the "Lore" class ability (aka Bardic Knowledge, and you're INT-based), full access to all 1st-level cleric spells, as well as the special spells added to the Cloistered Cleric list (like Identify as a 1st level divine spell) that you can write into your prayerbook. Oh, yeah, and THREE DOMAINS. Knowledge is automatic, though I'd suggest swapping it for Knowledge Devotion as said in an earlier post. For the other two domains go Planning (Extend Spell as a free feat) and Undeath (Extra Turning as a free feat). That's a hell of a lot of stuff to get for a 1-level dip.

As for gaining Turn Undead uses through other classes, you could take a level in Dread Necromancer, I guess, to get Rebuke as well as Turn. Otherwise, I suppose you'll need to find a prestige class or cleric domain that provides a different type of turn/rebuke (like the Spider Domain's "Rebuke Spiders")? I've never really been clear on whether it specifically requires "Turn/Rebuke Undead", or just the turn/rebuke ability in general. But I'm inclined to believe that if you already have Turn and/or Rebuke from another source, then you wouldn't get another full pool of uses by taking a second class that gives you exactly the same ability. Seems silly.

[Keld Denar]

Errata for DMM cleared up that you can only use Turn or Rebuke Undead for it.

That said, a couple ACFs specify that they function exactly as Turn Undead. The Destroy Undead ACF from Return to Castle Ravenloft is one such feature.

Also, Nightsticks give 4 TU attempts. There is also the Relequary Holy Symbol in the MIC that should give you another +2 if you meet the conditions.

[Vangor]

Be neutral alignment, take Cleric (Cloistered) and choose to channel positive energy and receive Turn Undead attempts, and then take Dread Necromancer which only grants Rebuke Undead attempts. To my knowledge, nothing stops you from doing this, but other sources of Turn or Rebuke if you already have do not generally stack. However, DMM specifically states, "As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead," and since other types of Turn/Rebuke do not add to a singular pool of Turn/Rebuke attempts (that is, you would have 7 Undead and 7 Slime, not simply 14 Turn/Rebuke) the wording is rather specific.

DMM Persist is fairly expensive but few things compare. Fortunately, a Cleric dip can net you Planning/Undeath domains for Extend Spell and Extra Turning, and with no Cha and two feats, Persistent Spell and DMM Persistent, you would have the ability to Persist one spell. With 16 Cha and an additional feat, Extra Turning again, you would be able to Persist two spells.

I would recommend the Spelldancer PrC for Archivist, personally, which is more feat intensive but ultimately offers a massive amount of metamagicking.

[Paganboy28]

Cloistered Cleric is an idea, though because we are using deities I am limited to which domains I can choose...

I am not sure I can convince the DM to allow me to take Undeath and Planning. I already have taken Knowledge Devotion so taking the Knowledge domain would be a bit pointless.

Also, I'm a gestalt wizard so some of the Cloistered Clerics additional "special" spells are not that important as such.


My long term plans per (as another post states)...


Arcane:

Wizard 5/Singer of Concordance 6/Divine Oracle 4/Paragnostic Apostle 4/Divine Oracle 1

Divine:

Archivist 14/Contemplative 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1



I have discussed this with the DM and he is happy with this as it fits the concept what my character is all about (hunting out and recording secret knowledge). I did put a dip into Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead for DMM but he disallowed that as not being in character.

Cloistered Cleric does fit the concept and potentially gives me even more options. Though I am limited to Boccob and Io currently though I guess I could say that since being exiled from Boccob's clergy, he has turned to other knowledge deities such as Wee Jas or such. Wee Jas would potentially allow acces to Undeath and I could blag Boccob to get the Planning domain.

I may ask the DM if I can slightly alter my character so that it changes from...

Archivist 10 to Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 9

Though the only problem with this is that they will not stack casting wise which means I am a cleric 1 and archivist 9 in terms of casting rather than archivist 10.

Is this a big problem?

[Curmudgeon]

I already have taken Knowledge Devotion so taking the Knowledge domain would be a bit pointless.

Doesn't seem pointless to me. You need to have 6 Knowledge skills as class skills to build up your skill ranks for the Knowledge Devotion checks, and the Knowledge domain gives you all Knowledges as class skills.

[Greenish]

Doesn't seem pointless to me. You need to have 6 Knowledge skills as class skills to build up your skill ranks for the Knowledge Devotion checks, and the Knowledge domain gives you all Knowledges as class skills.

And the +1 CL to divinations and the spells it grants aren't bad either, though being gestalted with wizard it's not so crucial.

[aeauseth]

If Persistent spells is your primary focus then consider Archivist/SpellDancer, you can dance every morning to persist your spells.

A few tricks like Binder/Nerberus, Rod Restoration, footwear in MIC that prevents exhaustion, etc can offset/negate the dancing penalties. In theory you could persist every spell slot every day. On top of that you could extend them for 48 hours.

I suppose you could do CloisteredCleric/SpellDancer as well. Not really sure which one would be better, guess it would depend on allowed sources.

[Paganboy28]

I cannot foresee my DM allowing my character to go into Spelldancer. He has no inclination to dance (my character not the dm).

Sacred Exorcist was also refused as being out of character.

[dextercorvia]

Whilst I can see the benefit of 24hr Arcane Spellsurge or other such spells this is expensive.

Since no one else has pointed it out, DMM only applies to Divine Spells. There are some ways around it, but I'm betting your DM will frown upon them, if he is not letting you pick PrC's based on the fluff of your character.